Small vs. Large
Do you have a subwoofer in your system? Great. Then your speakers are small. Before you get all upset, read on. This is one of those audio myths whose time has come to be busted. To understand why, we need to talk about Bass Management.
In the early days of home theater it was thought that in order to reproduce the full movie surround experience at home it was necessary to place 5 large loudspeakers in the room. The reason for the size was the woofers. To play at theatrical reference levels and reproduce the deepest bass available in the content requires each speaker to have 12” or larger woofers. Let’s just say that this theory didn’t get very far in the real world.
A better and more practical approach came after studying human perception. The mechanisms that we use to determine the direction of arrival of sound depend on the frequency. At high frequencies the wavelength of sound is small and so sound coming from the side is shadowed by our head. That creates a level difference between the sound reaching the ear closest to the source and the ear on the other side. Our brain analyzes these level differences and produces an estimate of where the sound is coming from. But at lower frequencies, the wavelength of sound gets longer and our head is not large enough to produce a level difference at the two ears. Instead, we analyze the difference in time of arrival of sound at the two ears. Sound arrives first at the closest ear and we use that to determine the direction. But even that ability fails us below about 80 Hz. The wavelengths get very large and it was found in listening tests that 80 Hz is the frequency below which most people can not localize the direction of sound.
Taking advantage of this apparent “deficiency” in our hearing was what made home theater practical for millions of homes. Five satellite speakers of reasonable size could now be used because they no longer required large woofers. A subwoofer (or two) can reproduce the lower octaves and it can be placed out of sight since its content is not directional.
But there is also a practical advantage: directing the bass to a dedicated subwoofer channel with its own amplifier greatly improves the headroom in the main channels. The idea behind this was proposed in a Society of Motion Picture Engineers (SMPTE) meeting in 1987. The participants could not agree on the minimum number of channels required for surround sound on film. Various numbers were being shouted out until a voice was heard from the back: “We need 5.1”. Everyone’s head turned around to look at Tom Holman. He proceeded to explain what he meant: Take the low frequency content from all 5 channels and redirect it away from the satellite speakers to the subwoofer. If we do the math, then the content below 80 Hz is 0.004 of the audible 20,000 Hz bandwidth. But 5.004 didn’t sound as catchy so Tom rounded up to 5.1. By the way, don’t make the amateur mistake of calling it 5 dot 1. It is a decimal: 5 point 1.
Fast forward to the early 90s when the first DSP powered home theater receivers started to appear. Along with progress came complexity. Some industry forces believed that Bass Management should be an option that could be turned on and off by the consumer. That’s not necessarily a bad idea, but to make an informed decision requires much more knowledge about the system than what was available to the typical consumer. So, the Large and Small rule of thumb was established. The idea was to look at the size of your speakers and decide whether their woofers were “large enough” to reproduce the lowest octaves at the required levels. It was a noble thought, but looking at it 15 years later I believe that it has led to nothing but massive confusion. The poor consumer was led to believe that Large is somehow a good thing and was then left wondering why there was nothing coming out of their subwoofer.
Redirecting the bass to the subwoofer relieves the receiver amplifiers from having to work on reproducing the low frequencies and this greatly improves the headroom. If you happen to be using Audyssey MultEQ for room correction, you will achieve much better low frequency performance because the MultEQ subwoofer filters have 8x higher resolution than the filters in the other channels.
Here is a better rule: All speakers are Small. In today’s complicated AVR lingo that just means: If you have a subwoofer you should always turn bass management on. Always. Even if your receiver clings to the past and automatically sets your speakers to Large.
May 29th, 2009 at 6:40 am
If the argument is that all speakers are small if you have a subwoofer. Then why does your software set my speakers to large when it knows that I have a subwoofer?
May 29th, 2009 at 6:47 am
Hi Tom,
The reason for that is that Audyssey is not “allowed” to make that determination. The decision to call a speaker Small or Large is made by each manufacturer. Until recently most used 80 Hz as the criterion to make that decision. So, for example, a speaker that was found to have a –3 dB roll off at 70 Hz would be called Large by the AVR maker. Bass management would be turned off for that speaker resulting in no bass being sent to the subwoofer.
We managed to convince most manufacturers that this was a very bad idea. As a result, most now use 40 Hz as the decision point. An improvement, but not the ultimate solution.
May 29th, 2009 at 7:22 am
Thanks. A very reasonible explanation. BTW are your familiar with the NAD Audyssey curve that NAD provides? What does that curve do differently than plain Audyssey.
May 29th, 2009 at 7:51 am
The core MultEQ room correction algorithm in the NAD products is exactly the same as all other licensee products. Audyssey provides two target sound curves (Audyssey Flat and Audyssey Reference). NAD has an additional target sound curve that is very similar to the Audyssey Reference curve with a slightly elevated bass region and a slightly rolled off high frequency region.
May 29th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Very good article.
I wish you guys also can come with a software similar to MultEQ that can be used for “Boss” Management
May 30th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
I just spent some time using my receiver’s setup function to flip my side surrounds back and forth from the “large” to the “small” settings, then flipping my fronts back and forth from “large” to “small”, and listening. The “large” setting for both sounds best. So for this reason and one other, I’m not convinced that “small” is always best. The other reason is that the article gives no real evidence — it’s just a series of unsupported assertions and references. The improved headroom argument is merely theoretical, and even at that would only make a difference in a system where the headroom is needed to improve the sound.
–Greg
May 30th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Hi Greg,
The headroom improvement is not theoretical. Using the fixed amplifier power over a narrower frequency range gives an improvement in headroom. That is a rather basic principle.
I would be curious to know what content you are using for evaluation of your surrounds and how your speaker levels are calibrated. I am wondering whether a different reason might be causing you to prefer Large: if there is too much bass in the surround signal then sending that to the sub may make the mix sound boomy. When you set them to Large and that bass is no longer being reproduced you may prefer that balance. This can happen, for example, if your subwoofer level is not set to reference relative to the satellite channels. Sending the bass content from the surrounds to it can offset the reference balance.
May 30th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
I intended to be questioning whether an improvement in headroom necessarily improves the sound (not whether there is an improvement in headroom).
Answering your questions: Just now I was playing the XM Real Jazz channel — don’t recall just what was on. (I think I have some sense of how plucked bass is supposed to sound, so that’s why I tend to listen to jazz when I’m evaluating bass.)
I used Pioneer’s MCACC to set the vsx-817 receiver’s levels and (5 band) equalization. I didn’t change that (though I have at times in the past hotted up the sub level).
I’m not questioning your diagnosis of why my system isn’t following your rule (if in fact it isn’t). I’m just reporting, and also asking for some evidence that speakers should always be set to “small”.
–Greg
May 30th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Hi Greg,
It’s very hard to comment on content that is so highly compressed and not in surround to begin with. Who knows what the upmixing algorithm you are using is doing to the surround signals…
I would suggest using film multichannel content that is mixed to well established and adhered to standards before making your final decision.
It is well established in the literature that an improvement in amplifier headroom improves sound quality. There are papers that you can find in the Audio Engineering Society archives that date back many decades. The biggest benefit comes in transient peaks that require large headroom reserves to be reproduced correctly. See for example: P. W. Mitchell, “A Musically Appropriate Dynamic Headroom Test for Power Amplifiers”, AES Convention, paper 2504, (1987).
But, this may also be a case of preference vs. reference. You may be interested in reading my thoughts on that here: http://www.audyssey.com/blog/category/blog/2009/05/reference-vs-preference/
June 8th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Just a couple of points of clarification, if I may.
In the early days of home theater, no one was ever expected to use 5 full range speakers. The surround channels in theatrical soundtracks did not (and still do not) carry deep bass, so no need for large surrounds in theaters or in homes. Later (1987), when Pro Logic was introduced, and the center speaker joined the party, it could also use a small speaker, as there was a form of bass management built in. The consumer could choose Large, Small, or None (phantom C). In Small, the bass was removed from C and split into L/R. Subwoofers were not too popular yet in homes.
The idea for directing the bass to a dedicated subwoofer channel with its own amplifier to improve headroom in the main channels was introduced 10 years earlier than you cite—-Star Wars, 1977, as detailed in Tom’s book “Surround Sound, Up and Running.”
–Roger
June 9th, 2009 at 12:43 am
One possible route to “bass management” that went unexplored in this post but that is available in most (if not perhaps all) Audyssey-equipped receivers and preamps is the use of “LFE+Main” or “DoubleBass” mode. In such modes, as I understand them, the mains run full-range AND the subwoofers - that is plural for a reason! - are lowpassed in at a specified frequency. So in the lower octaves, both mains and subwoofers are receiving signal.
With that in mind, what about a special (dare I write, ideal) case: LCR mains that are genuinely capable of reaching reasonably deep (<40Hz) with enough cone area and box volume to do so efficiently. Additionally, let’s stipulate that the mains/amp system allows functionally limitless headroom above the mains’ lower cutoff when run full range.
In such a case, would you recommend still setting the mains to “small” at some frequency, or would you recommend using the LFE+Main mode in attempts to better randomize the effects of room modes?
June 9th, 2009 at 8:16 am
LFE+Main or Double Bass is an option that was specifically created by AVR makers to appease customers who were personally “offended” when their speakers were designated Small. With this option, the bass from the supposed Large speakers is not lost and is redirected to the subwoofer. The problem is that in the overlap frequency region between the sub and the speaker the bass is doubled and therefore not correct. Having a sub is only beneficial if the content between it and the satellite speakers is properly spliced so the blend doesn’t cause issues. Just playing the same content from both doesn’t do that.
Yes, there is a benefit in distributing the bass from multiple sources. But the only way to do that correctly is with more than one subwoofer.
June 10th, 2009 at 11:17 am
My main speakers are full range actives that go down to 15Hz at reference levels, so they’re set to large. Needless to say, I don’t have a separate sub connected to the LFE channel of my Denon AVR-3808. You stated that “the MultEQ subwoofer filters have 8x higher resolution than the filters in the other channels.” What happens to those filters in my setup? Do they just sit idle, or are they re-assigned to help manage the bass spectrum of my full range main speakers?
June 10th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
The filters in the subwoofer channel are designed to only operate in that channel and so they will remain unused if there is no subwoofer in the system.
June 14th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
In comment on what JBH says about the DoubleBass mode, I think perhaps there is some resurgence of interest in using this due to some remarks of Geddes to the effect that the more different sources of bass you have, the better. But of course you do need to control the booms from having several bass sources at some frequencies. I’ve had some success using DoubleBass in the past and dialing down the subwoofer’s crossover knob to control the duplication region.
June 15th, 2009 at 5:14 am
Hi Chris
I totally agree with your assertion that if you use a sub your speakers should be set as small, so I hope my question is not too off topic for you to answer.
My question relates to the new sub equaliser. I am currently using an Audyssey Sound Equalizer, I run 2 subs and am wondering if the sub equalizer is a better option for dealing with equalizing and blending two subs or is it the same as what I already have with the Audyssey Sound Equalizer.
June 15th, 2009 at 8:21 am
Hi Noel,
The Sub Equalizer performs more advanced processing for two subs. It first finds the delay and levels for each sub individually and then applies that correction. Then it measures the two time and level aligned subs as “one”. This gives much better low frequency correction when you have two subs.
June 17th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Hi Chris,
So if I have two subwoofers connected to independent channels on the Audyssey Sound Equalizer I will not get as good a result as the Sub equalizer? If that is true am I to daisy chain a Sub equalizer to my Audyssey Sound Equalizer? Or can I get my Sound Equalizer upgraded?
June 17th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
Hi Toby,
Yes, the additional processing in the Sub Equalizer will do a better job of blending two subs. You can feed the sub output of a Sound EQ to the Sub EQ, but you are better off taking the subwoofer signal from the pre-pro and going directly to the Sub EQ. We don’t currently have any plans announced to upgrade the Sound Equalizer, but will keep you posted if that changes.
June 22nd, 2009 at 3:17 am
Dear Chris,
I’ve been reading your posts from AVS and here as well and am truly impressed.
I use an Onkyo TX SR 805 with a Bose Accoustimass 10 system (I know they may not be every one’s favorite). Bose recommends setting all speakers as “Full Band”. Audyssey sets them at “Full Band” as well. Should I stick to this configuration or swtich to say 80hz crossover for my satellites. As you would know bass for all channels is managed by the bass module in Bose and the LFE channel is output from another driver in the same enclosure.
After running the Auddysey setup, I find that the bass is “very low” from the 5 channels (sub seems ok). This is not preferential bass I am talking about, but rather you feel the loss of low frequency detail especially while playing music.
Sorry for the long post, but you would seem to be the only person who could answer.
June 23rd, 2009 at 5:11 am
Hi Alf,
If you feed your surround channels to the bass module then they will be automatically found to be Full Range because the receiver doesn’t know there is a subwoofer connected.
The only way to set a crossover in the receiver for your satellites is to allow the receiver to do the bass management and feed the bass module from the Sub Out connector on the back of the AVR.
The problem is that the satellites are quite small and start to roll off around 150-200 Hz so to blend them with the bass module would require you to manually set the crossovers to 150 Hz or so.
June 26th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
Hi Chris, let me see if I understand you what you are saying is that in a general situation if you have a subwoofer then all of your speaker should be set to small, so that the proper bass would be heard correctly?
What is the sense of having large speakers then? thought that it would be for better sound such as the highs and the lows in the movie or CD.
Thanks
June 27th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Hi Ralph,
Let’s go back to the definition of Small and Large speakers. These are poorly chosen names that actually mean:
Large: Turn off bass management and don’t send low frequency content from this speaker to the subwoofer.
Small: Turn on bass management and send low frequency content below the crossover frequency to the subwoofer.
So, yes, I am advocating that if you have a subwoofer then bass management should always be on. The benefits in amplifier headroom improvement and higher resolution low frequency room correction are significant.
The physical size of speakers does not really guarantee anything about sound quality. It depends on their design and, more importantly, on the effects of the room they are placed in.
July 5th, 2009 at 8:59 am
Yeah, they should change the names.
Small => Bass Managed
Large => Bass Mismanaged
July 11th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
1. My Denon 2809 has a “LFE+Main” setting. Is this a nasty option that breaks the Audyssey EQ so the listener get too much bass, or is it a good thing for people with small speakers and large room?
2. Shouldnt the Audyssey setup give a warning if subwoofer trim is at lowest, and ask you to turn down the volume on the sub and run a new test? I noticed this only after reading long Audyssey faq and found i had to turn sub down to only 20% volume to get above the -12dB trim.
July 12th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Hi Jon,
1. LFE+Main is not recommended. It can end up doubling the bass in the overlap frequency range between the sub and the speakers.
2. This has been implemented in the new models that are coming out this year.
July 13th, 2009 at 8:53 am
Chris, great post. Few questions.
1. What are the “trim limits” on db correction for the sub channel? I’m asking because Audyssey gave my subs (built into my JBL S412PII speakers) a “+12db” correction. I’m wondering if that’s ok, or whether I should increase the gain (had it set to exctly middle) and re-run Audyssey? FWIW, things sound just fine. Since I’m using a new Denon AVR-890, I wasn’t sure if this has the max/min trim level warning that you reference the “new models taht are coming out this year” will have. Also, my subs don’t have any sort of filter or other adjustments…just the one main knob
2. With having these two subs, the way I’m currently running these is to run the sub cable from each speaker into a “Y” splitter and then connecting the Y into the sub input in the back of the receiver (as per page 5 of the manual in the link above). This is fine to do, correct? I have no idea what else I might need to do other than this, but I thought I should at least check.
3. Given these speakers that I am using, this doesn’t end up as some exception to the rule of this Large vs Small post, since the subs are really part of the front speakers themselves, right?
4. I have yet to switch the front speaker setting to Small in Audyssey (just reat this article!). Can I simply go into the manual setup and change them, and I’m good? No need to re-run any setup then? This will not cancel or ruin the Audyssey Dynamic EQ that is currently set?
Thanks for the great info!
July 14th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Hi Jeff,
Every manufacturer decides what trim limits to use based on their gain structure. ±12 dB is typical, but some use ±15 dB. In general, you want to avoid having a sub trim found near the limit because it would mean that the volume on the back of the sub is turned up too high or too low.
Two subs are best corrected when MultEQ can measure the time delay and level for each one individually and then create a filter for the combination. But, most AVR products available do not allow subs to be handled individually this way. A y splitter is fine, but try to place the subs so that they are at the same distance from the main listening position.
It doesn’t matter if the subs are built in to the speaker cabinets. If they provide you with a line-level input then you should use it and set the other speakers to Small so that the bass management system can redirect the bass to the subs.
Yes, you can (and should) change to Small after MultEQ is finished and stored. Doing it before will have no effect as it will be reset by the AVR.
July 17th, 2009 at 9:22 am
If you have your speakers set to small and the crossover is set to 80hz to the sub, wouldn’t you want to increase the range to sub to like 150-300?
my fronts and rears are the same speaker with a 1″ tweeter and 4″ mid
Would this give you more bass or muddier bass?
July 17th, 2009 at 9:32 am
Hi Brandon,
The crossover is actually two filters: a highpass filter applied to the satellite and a lowpass applied to the subwoofer. So, when you say “my crossover is at 80 Hz” that means that frequencies above that are going to the satellite and below that to the subwoofer. Using a different frequency for the highpass and lowpass filters is not a good idea because it can lead to blending problems.
July 17th, 2009 at 10:52 am
I keep thinking about a 3-way system where you may have the sub at 500hz the mid at 2500-3000hz and everything else for the tweeter.
Is this different than a standard 3-way or do the same rules apply. My speakers are just 2-way would you get better results with a 3-way?
When you say you may get blending problems would that mean to much bass is going to the sub?
July 17th, 2009 at 11:28 am
The woofer in a 3-way system is not the same as the subwoofer in a bass managed system. The discussion here is about bass managing speakers (2-way or 3-way) with a separate subwoofer. There are important benefits in doing that, particularly because of the added resolution you can achieve in room correction filter performance in the subwoofer channel.
July 19th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Chris,
My understanding is that Audyssey corrects main speakers’ responses down to their individual -3 db rolloffs in the bass. My question is: -3 db relative to what? Since uncorrected bass frequency response for real speakers in real rooms tends to be pretty lumpy, what’s the assumed 0 db point? I assume you don’t want some amount of real-room “lumpiness” to be incorrectly interpreted as a speaker’s bass rolloff point in a particular room (i.e., if you have, say, a 5 db dip at 60 Hz followed by a 4 db peak at 50 Hz, I would assume you’d want to correct for the 60 Hz dip rather than assuming that’s the bass rolloff point).
July 19th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Hi Bob,
Finding the roll-off point is a complex calculation. Our algorithms look at the magnitude response in the midrange and then analyze the in-room measured data to figure out where the speaker is starting to roll-off relative to that level. A dip has very different characteristics from a roll off and MultEQ tries to analyze the measured room data to differentiate between the two.
July 20th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Hi Chris, I have a denon 3808ci reciever B7W speakers all around with a rear center channel. I just recently added a Definitive Tech sub 200 TL. I set the subs crossover to 150 like the included paphlet suggested if my reciever had low cross over filter. I ran MultEQ which a installer set up for me when I first got the reciever. So forgive for saying I am totally confused at this point. After running this and always wanting my speakers at small the MultEq set speakers at large. Is it okay to change it back to small. It also left my crossover at 40 under the advanced mode. I thought is was supposed to be set at 80. Also LFE +main was set and I always thought this was bad. As you can see I need help I just want to know that everything is set the way it is supposed to be and enjoy it. I thought this auto set up would get me there but its only made me more confused.
July 20th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Hi Mark,
First let me clarify: Audyssey does NOT make the call if a speaker is Large or Small. The manufacturer of your product does. As I said in my blog, we would like to see all speakers set to Small if there is a subwoofer in the system so that the benefits of bass management and higher resolution room correction can be applied.
That’s exactly what the last line in my blog says: if your receiver set your speakers to Large change them to Small. The crossover frequency to select should be what you see in the Advanced Mode menu. That’s the frequency that MultEQ found to be the roll off point of your speaker in your room.
Finally, Audyssey does not set or recommend LFE+Main. That needs to be eliminated from receivers. Until then, please set it to LFE.
July 20th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Thanks Chris for clearing this up for me. After I change back to small speakers should I re run the set up?
July 23rd, 2009 at 10:39 am
The saga continues…
from an audio engineers point of view who does not use any bass management when mixing 5.1 material, I would much rather hear the mix as the mixer intended it to be heard (ie all bookshelf/floorstanding speakers set to large) instead of hearing what may in fact be actually on the 5 channels as this is at the cost of introducing often inferior filters to the signal path. As far as I am aware, most mixers do not use bass management at the mixing stage.
For music, my setup sounds best set to large (at moderate levels), although for films and pure sound level maximisation/distortion minimisation, I’m sure small would be the best option. It all depends on what you are aiming for.
July 23rd, 2009 at 11:05 am
just to clarify, I do not think that mix engineers shouldn’t check their mixes with bass management enabled, but in my experience this has not been the default position.
July 23rd, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Hi Tim,
It’s difficult to generalize and say “most mixers”. I was recently in a very famous studio in NY and bass management was used correctly. For 5.1 mixing they use proper home theater bass management and for 2-channel stereo they add an external subwoofer to each of the front two channels with a proper crossover. I have seen this in several other music mixing places as well.
July 27th, 2009 at 9:06 am
Hi Chris,
Whilst I have genuine full range main speakers (flat to 20Hz) I do cross them over at 40Hz as you’ve discussed.
But my question is broader. My main speakers are dipoles, with a different radiation pattern to monopoles. How does Audyssey go with such beasts?
My surrounds are monopoles.
Thanks
July 27th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Hi Steve,
MultEQ doesn’t really “care” what the radiation pattern of the speakers is. It looks at the combined direct and reflected sound that arrives in the listening area and creates filters to correct for problems.
July 28th, 2009 at 6:30 am
Hi Chris,
I’m just about to pick up a new Denon AVR with MultEQ.
I’m running a 5 speaker surround setup (no sub). Mains fall below -3dB at about 32Hz, centre and surrounds around 43Hz. Expect MultEQ will probably detect all as ‘large’.
However, as I’m not running a sub, should I leave them all set as ‘large’, or only the mains? If I change the centre and surrounds to ’small’, will any frequencies below the MultEQ crossover disappear completely, or will they get redirected to the ‘large’ mains, as I’m not running a dedicated sub channel?
Thanks, James
July 28th, 2009 at 8:26 am
Hi James,
Without a sub, your front L and R can only be set to Large. There is no other choice. If your L and R have larger woofers than the Center and Surrounds then I would recommend setting those to Small so that bass is redirected to the L and R speakers.
July 29th, 2009 at 9:57 am
I have Polk SDA SRS 2.3’s for my mains and listen large with movies. I hear much more detail with large settings over small settings. Also, I amp the mains with 350 wpc so headroom should not be a problem. With my setup, large is very appropriate for me?
July 29th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Hi Bill,
What subwoofer do you have? When you set them to Small, is your AVR engaging the Double Bass or LFE+Main mode for the subwoofer? It is not recommended to use those modes because they send bass to both the sub and the speakers resulting in boomy bass that can mask details.
July 29th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
My reciever is a Pio ‘94 with external Carver 350 wpc amps and subs are dual Elemental A7S-450’s with the crossover of 80 hz at the reciever. The MBM-12’s are each wired thru the mains with no crossover set as they are set at 50 hz up (extra mid bass this way). The mains are not set “plus” for extra bass. When listening in large it seems that the speaker audio has more depth and the dialoge has more warmth with the bass. My L&R surrounds are Polk RTA 12’s, the rears are Polk Monitor 10’s, with a Polk LSic center.
To clarify - With the MBM’s wired with the mains, it is the same as adding a sub to the mains, and then letting the LFE to it’s own subs. So in a way, I have 4 subs. Two with mains, and two with LFE.
July 29th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
I have 2 satellite speakers for my mains that are wired through my subwoofer first. I also have my subwoofer connected to the LFE port on my receiver. Is this the double bass you refer to? I guess you are suggesting that I hook up the speakers directly to the receiver via speaker wire and only have my sub connected via the LFE?
July 29th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Hi Allan,
If you have a receiver with MultEQ you will get much better performance by changing your connections. Having the subwoofer be in charge of the crossover is far from ideal. Connect the sub to the subwoofer output of your receiver so that the receiver is in charge of bass management. The MultEQ filters created for the subwoofer channel will give you much higher resolution and therefore better low frequency room correction.
The double bass I mentioned above is something else. Many receivers have a subwoofer mode called “Double Bass” that takes the bass from the satellite speakers and sends it to *both* the subwoofer *and* the satellite speakers even when they are set to “Large”. It’s a really bad idea to use this setting because you end up with overlapping boomy bass.
July 29th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
One more quick question (thanks for responding to my first). My connections are as follows:
Receiver main output to subwoofer, subwoofer to main right and left. My sub has a crossover knob and a gain knob. My sub also has an LFE that IS connected to my receiver.
If i simply turn my receiver setting to small for my mains it will no longer send the full bass signal to my sub or mains that are connected to it via the speaker wire. Since my sub also has the LFE connection will this take care of everything or do I have to phyically unplug the speaker wires from my sub and ONLY have it connected by LFE?
Thank you for help. And just so you know I have a brand new Denon with the MultEQ on it.
July 29th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Hi Allan,
Don’t connect your L and R speakers to your subwoofer. Connect them to the receiver. Connect the subwoofer output of your receiver to the LFE input of the sub. Then set all your speakers to Small (after running MultEQ) in the Denon. This will let the Denon bass management operate correctly and redirect the bass below the crossover frequency to your sub and the content above the crossover frequency to your speakers.
July 30th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Chris,
Is it true that if you change the crossover settings (for any of the 5 channels) to a lower point than Audyssey found for the -3db down point then the corrections will no longer be applied? If so, is it just for the channel you adjusted or is the effect global?
More to the point, is there any way you are aware of to “dummy” a lower crossover and still keep the Audyssey correction for that channel?
July 30th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
Hi Bryan,
Yes it’s true. MultEQ creates correction filters down to the in-room measured –3 dB point of each speaker. It won’t try to correct below that as that could end up boosting below the capability of the speaker. This is done for each speaker individually. So, if you manually set the crossover below the calculated –3 dB point you will not be getting correction from MultEQ below that point.
I am not sure I understand your second question. Why would you want to do that? There are many reasons that a measured roll-off is higher than the manufacturer specs in an anechoic measurement. That’s the whole point of measuring in your room! I hear from many users who feel “insulted” when their “big towers” didn’t measure as low as the spec sheet. Placement in the room and the room itself are the cause of that. There is no performance hit to set your crossover higher than the spec. On the contrary, the blend with the subwoofer will be optimized for your room and the bass going to the sub will benefit from the 8x higher resolution that the MultEQ filters provide in the sub channel.
July 31st, 2009 at 9:26 am
Chris,
Thank you for your answer. In fact, it makes my second question a moot point if I understand you correctly.
You are saying that the corrections will STILL be applied, but the corrections will only be on the frequencies down to the measured in-room -3dB point?
I think there was a general misunderstanding that all corrections for that channel would be disabled IF you were to lower the crossover below the Audyssey measured -3dB down point.
That is a very acceptable implementation. Thank you.
August 3rd, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Chris,
Do receivers only do bass management when the LFE light shows up on the front panel? The reason I ask is, I’m very happy with the Audyssey settings of my Denon when watching 5.1 content but when I am watching TV with only stereo the bass is gone. So I find that in that scenario putting my fronts as large sounds much better than small. Small sounds better when there is an LFE content feed. Thoughts? By the way I’m very impressed with your technology but even more impressed that you actually “talk to the people” via this blog. Thanks.
August 3rd, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Hi Allan,
Receivers do bass management when your speakers are set to Small. That’s all that “Small” means: “Turn on bass management”. If you set your speakers to Large then no bass is being sent to the subwoofer other than the separate LFE track found in 5.1 content. There is no LFE track in stereo content so with speakers set to Large your subwoofer will be silent.
If you use Direct or Pure Direct in stereo then a lot of the DSP processing (including bass management) is disabled so perhaps this is what you are experiencing with the TV source.
August 4th, 2009 at 9:17 am
if the audyssey software suggests all speakers to have bass management set to on (ie small mode) what are the biggest speakers i need to achieve the ultimate sound. since you dont manufacture speakers, i assume i should get a pretty unbiased response
thanks for your time on this discussion.
August 4th, 2009 at 10:35 am
Hi Darrell,
That’s one of those impossible-to-answer questions. Besides the fact that I can’t go into specific product recommendations, it’s actually not an easy question to answer. “Ultimate sound” means different things to different people. For me it means: “hearing what was heard by the people who made the content”. To do that we have to reproduce the frequency range, dynamic range, and surround impression that was experienced in the creation of the content. There is no one “magic” speaker recommendation that will achieve that. But, there are a set of problems that prevent you from experiencing this regardless of the speaker system you have:
1) The frequency response of your speakers in your room is different than what was used to make the content.
This is what Audyssey MultEQ tries to solve by measuring the room and creating a set of filters that correct acoustical problems.
This is also an area where proper bass management is needed. Content is made to extend to a certain low frequency and at a certain sound pressure level. The amplifier power needed to reproduce the required SPL levels at low frequencies is quite high and so, using a separate subwoofer amp for that purpose is beneficial to the playback quality of the entire system.
Furthermore, the MultEQ room correction filters in the subwoofer channel have 8x more resolution and so redirecting content to that channel for reproduction greatly improves the bass response in your listening room.
2) Most people at home typically listen at levels 10-20 dB below what the mixers listen. Because human hearing perceives octave-to-octave balance differently at lower volumes we developed Dynamic EQ to adjust for that so that the balance is restored even at low volumes. Our perception of surround impression also changes at lower volumes so Dynamic EQ makes an adjustment to the surround speaker level to maintain constant surround impression.
August 4th, 2009 at 11:59 am
thanks for the response. i didnt think you could recommend a brand. but i hoped that you could recommend a certain specification or type of speaker that sounds best after audyssey is ran. for instance, is a center channel with 2 6.5 inch woofers going to sound as good as a center channel with 2 3.5 inch woofers after audyssey is ran? is a three way speaker better than a two way speaker for the fronts? surrounds? center?
my thinking is that a three way speaker should theoretically sound better than a two way speaker since you have a third speaker covering the complete frequency range. or is all this negated by using audyssey?
August 4th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Hi Darrell,
Audyssey MultEQ is not a technology that will fix speaker design problems. It is a technology that will fix room acoustics problems. So, a speaker with two 3.5″ woofers will not play as low as one with two 6.5″ woofers because of anything that MultEQ does. Instead, they will each perform as well as they can considering the limitations of their design, placement, and room acoustics.
August 5th, 2009 at 8:06 am
Hi Chris, I’ve been using the SVS AS-EQ1 for some time now and I must say I’m quite impressed about its quality.
Now just some questions that has been lingering in my mind for quite some time now…and I think you’re the best person to approach.
You mentioned that there’s actually 2 types of response curve…one is flat and the other one called reference. The latter is something I’m quite interested in…in the past, I have used Parametric EQ to derive what I will called my very own unique ‘house curve’ which is like what Audyssey Reference will be…boosting certain set of frequencies to get that kind of ‘aggressive’ and ‘impactful’ bass during movies.
Now my question is will SVS AS-EQ1 able to allow reference curve measurement instead of the default flat curve? And why is flat curve better than a ‘house curve’ although I have to admit that flat curve actually made music sounded alot better BUT it lost its shine during some of the movies. Can SVS AS-EQ1 do reference curve as well?
Many thanks!
August 6th, 2009 at 12:06 am
Hello Chris,
this has been an interesting reading.
I wanted to mention that some AVRs also apply Dolby’s Dynamic Range Compression to Dolby Digital soundtracks when no subwoofer channel or center channel is present, and this cannot be turned off.
I have not checked if it also happens when setting the speakers to “Large”, though. But this is a word of caution for those going the “no center” and/or “no sub” route (or connecting the sub via high-level from the speaker outputs of the AVR).
Regards,
Alberto
August 6th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Hi Desray,
This discussion probably belongs in the Reference vs Preference blog. The Audyssey reference curve is not really a house curve based on preference. It is intended to provide a translation of the conditions in the mix environment to the home environment. It considers factors such as listening distance, direct-to-reverberant-ratio and others. This translation is only needed in the high frequency range. The low frequency range is calibrated to a flat curve to match what was used in the creation of the content.
So, yes, the SVS AS-EQ1 calibrates your subwoofer to reference by setting the level to be the same as the satellite speakers and correcting the response so that it is flat over the listening area.
August 7th, 2009 at 6:47 am
Just have a question concerning the mic setup during the initial auto setup. In position (1 ) it requires you set the mic at ear level and in the center most listening position. With my Denon EQ+ there are 7 more positions that the system requires you to sample within the room area. Is there any particular pattern that must be used to do this correctly,for example, next 2 left of center and than the next 2 right of center or does the software not care and the sample spots can be random.
August 18th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
hi–
I have a question for ya:
I run the MultEQ setup on my 2808CI and it set my speakers to “Large.” I should now go back and set them to small, right?
thanks!
mike
September 3rd, 2009 at 9:52 am
Chris, I had a installer come in and set up my sub and determined that a 50 hz crossover at the reciever was best as my mains (SDA SRS 2.3) have 4 mid bass speakers each and handle the mid bass just fine and blend very well with the sub. My speakers are set to small. I always thought that when you set a crossover on the mains for the LFE that any bass over the crossover point is discarded. So is this true? Or, should the reciever crossover be set at 80?
Bill
September 4th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Hi Bill,
There is nothing discarded when you set a crossover point. The bass management system simply determines where to send that content. Anything below 50 Hz in your case is going to the subwoofer and anything above it is going to your speakers.
Also, please note that the LFE signal is not the same as the bass content in the main channels. LFE is a separate 6th track found only in 5.1 content. It is always sent to the subwoofer by the bass management system. In addition to that track, bass management also collects all the content below the crossover frequency for each speaker and sends it to the subwoofer as well. It is this content that is affected by the crossover frequency.
September 4th, 2009 at 11:35 am
I’m confused by the LFE vs LFE+Main debate. What is stated in this blog is different than the manual of my Denon 4308ci. The manual states “select LFE+Main if you want the bass signals to always be produced by the subwoofer”. That indicates to me that the only other option on the 4308ci “LFE” would only use the sub to produce bass when playing a 5.1 track. I’m at work and can’t test that theory. But if thats the case LFE + Main would be “good” because the sub wouldn’t be used on stereo and mono tracks without that setting. Is it possible LFE + Main means different things on different receivers?
September 4th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
Hi Colin,
The manual can be confusing. Here is how bass management works:
When you select a crossover frequency for each speaker (i.e. set the speaker to Small), the content below that frequency is sent to the subwoofer. This happens for stereo and 5.1 content.
In addition to the low frequency content from the satellite speakers, there is a separate LFE track found in 5.1 content. This track is also directed to the subwoofer and added to the low frequency content from the other speakers.
Now, about LFE+Main… If you set any speaker to Large then the bass from that speaker is normally NOT sent to the subwoofer. LFE+Main lets you send the bass from that speaker to the sub, but it also keeps it in the speaker itself. This is a bad thing because you end up doubling the bass.
So, you ask, why was this mode created? Because some people can’t sleep at night if their speakers are set to Small. They don’t realize that Small means: let the bass management system do the job it was designed to do.
September 4th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Thanks Chris,
I did not consider the manual could be talking about the “large” speaker situation. Your explanation cleared it up for me.
September 10th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Hi Chris,
I thought I had this figured out until I came across this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=687600&highlight=3806 where you advocate the use of LFE+Main in the “small” speaker scenario. That is what I was initially refering too since I never set my speakers to “large”.
September 10th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
Congratulations on bringing to market what I honestly believe is truly revolutionary technology in audio reproduction in domestic spaces. I’ve been waiting for this for years and visited your site today to look farther into it. Keep up the good work! One contention though..
Quote- “… LFE+Main lets you send the bass from that speaker to the sub, but it also keeps it in the speaker itself. This is a bad thing because you end up doubling the bass.
So, you ask, why was this mode created? Because some people can’t sleep at night if their speakers are set to Small. They don’t realize that Small means: let the bass management system do the job it was designed to do.”
The above is an over-simplification. It may be good advice for the typical casual user and I do understand the desire to avoid confusing end users with too many options, but is not correct in an absolute sense. I’m a bit surprised to hear such stated in such blunt unqualified terms from the CTO of a company which obviously understands the true complexity of reproduction using multiple speakers and subs in domestic spaces and professional studios and produces products to help manage those issues.
The LFE+Main option is a work around for the inherent ignorance of the bass-management device. It puts control of the crossover in the hands of the user or installer. Like any tool, it must be implemented correctly to be useful rather than harmful. If manufacturers are concerned with the sleep of insecure, large speaker owning customers, they should simply rename the settings: ‘bass-managed’ & ‘not-managed’. But please don’t take options out of the hands of those who can make proper use of them.
The root problem is correctly integrating the crossover between the speaker(s) and sub(s). The LFE+Main issue you refer to as ‘double bass’ is real, but is simply a problem of improper user implementation. The useful purpose of that mode is to allow flexibility in correcting problems created by the unwanted interaction of the bass management imposed crossover with the low end roll off response of the speaker/room combination. Any crossover filter imposed by bass-management does not replace the existing low frequency roll-off of the speaker in the room but is implemented ‘in addition to it’. Unfortunately, bass management is unaware of that combined response. Because of that, a canned crossover frequency and slope may not sum correctly.
Since bass management is ignorant of the existing slope and corner frequency of the low end response of the speaker – either as designed or it’s actual response in the room - it cannot correct for any inappropriate ‘over-lap’ or addition of it’s filter imposed on top of the existing response. The only exception I’m aware of is THX compliant speakers where the speaker roll-off is required to match the THX specified bass management crossover slope so that the combined response sums correctly.
As an example, lets assume my speaker has a low end roll off of 24db/octave with a -3dB point at 80Hz and I have plenty of headroom in the speaker and amplification. Coincidentally my bass management is also set to 80Hz and has a 4th order slope (24 dB/octave). The resulting slopes add together and the actual speaker roll off is then a much steeper and unintended 48dB/octave. The result is an uneven response with a possible lack of energy in the region just beneath 80 Hz. In this case, even though my speakers are ‘small’ I may get a better speaker-sub integration by setting them to LFE+Main since the existing speakers response is already exactly what the bass management is trying to impose. If the speaker’s roll off is other than exactly 24db/octave at 80Hz, then the additive slope is more complex. This issue is well known by Mastering Engineers for whom bass management imposed main-to-sub crossovers are rarely accurate enough to be useful for their critical work.
However, there is a bright point to all of this complexity. If all level, response, timing/phase adjustments and bass management were performed by the Audyssey EQ device that ‘dumb-crossover’ problem could be eliminated. Since the Audyssey EQ measures the speaker’s actual response in the room and therefore ‘knows’ what the existing slopes and points are, it could calculate a crossover correctly matched to the situation. I hope to see that capability implemented in a future Audyssey product. Put all the speaker and room correction in the Audyssey EQ device, within the speakers>room>mic>EQ corrective feedback loop where it can be most effective and correctly implemented. I’ll still argue for the ability to modify the settings within the device for those with the need and knowledge to do so properly.
Thanks for creating these powerful tools.
Cheers,
Lee
September 16th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
My Audyssey pro consultant just configured my Denon 3808ci. My front speakers are Monitor audio BR2 surrond are BR1 and Center is BRLCR. Veladyne Mini cube is SW.
He set the front speakers to Large (he said the setup did it) and the crossovers are both Front and Surround is at 40Hz. SW at 80hz and center at 110hz. When I asked about having the front small he said not to change it because Audyssey setting did it and would ruin the setup.
My questions are:
1. Is this setup valid taking into consideration your advise about setting speakers to small.
2. If I change the front speakers to small will it ruin the Audyssey pro setup?
3. If I raise the crossover on front to 60hz and surrond to 80 hz, will it ruin my audyssey set up?
The reason I’m asking these questions is that the setup sems to be different than your article suggests a setup should be.
Thanks in advance for your answer.
October 1st, 2009 at 9:39 pm
Hey Chris, very interesting posts and I fooled around with my Pioneer 5.1 AVR tonight, set all speakers to small, but don’t notice that the sub, which is the 15″ AudioSource and capable of wall -shaking bass, is adding any lows, in fact it almost seems like the bass is being held-back. Anyway, if mains should be set to “small”, why do they make tower speakers that include a sub(5 or 6 inches)designated speaker, a mid and a tweeter, if the lows are to be handled by the main subwoofer? I’m guessing your answer would be that these towers are meant for people who can’t afford a separate subwoofer, but that concept takes away from the tower concept, if only the mid and high speakers are activated. For example, the Polk Monitor 60 tower has 3 mid range speakers and a tweeter, so they would seem perfect for a ’small’ setup. On the other hand, the Polk Monitor 70, has 2 speakers designated as ’subs’, two as ‘mids’ and a tweeter. Reading reviews, people claim the 70’s give them a ‘fuller, sd, probably meaning they’re running them in ‘large’ format. That’s where your “reference vs preference’ takes over. If I’m buying a tower that is more expensive and has, say, 4 speakers in it, I want them all to function and setting them as ’small’ will cut out 2 of them, which would make no sense from a marketing point of view! Also, I upgraded my center to a Polk CS20 and I want the center channel, since it handles most of the vocals, to be not only ‘crisp’, but ‘deep’ as well, so setting it to ‘large’ seems to give it that ‘beefier’ sound. Again, preference vs reference. Comments?
Thanks, Johnny
October 1st, 2009 at 10:11 pm
Hi Howard,
No, the “setup” didn’t do it. Your AVR decides when to set speakers to Small or Large. Audyssey always recommends Small if you have a subwoofer.
1. Is this setup valid taking into consideration your advise about setting speakers to small.
It’s valid, but you will get better results if you change the speakers to Small because that will turn on bass management for those speakers and redirect their bass to the sub.
2. If I change the front speakers to small will it ruin the Audyssey pro setup?
No it will not ruin it.
3. If I raise the crossover on front to 60hz and surrond to 80 hz, will it ruin my audyssey set up?
It’s OK to raise the crossovers to a higher frequency.
October 1st, 2009 at 10:14 pm
Hi Johnny,
Even with towers that have large woofers (most don’t) you are giving up on two benefits by not turning on bass management:
1. Improved amp headroom because it doesn’t have to worry about the bass
2. Improved bass room correction by MultEQ because the filters in the subwoofer channel have 8x higher resolution that those in the satellite channels.
October 2nd, 2009 at 4:17 pm
Yeah but Chris, despite the headroom and bass room correction, you haven’t answered the other question. If tower speakers were meant to be fronts and therefore “small”, why would the manufacturers build them with 6 inch ‘woofers’ and crossovers, instead of making them all midrange speakers, with a tweeter in there for crispness? Using Polk Audio as my example, the more expensive tower 70’s would not be as effective when set to ’small’, because two of the four 6.5″ speakers are designated as subs and two as midrange. Wouldn’t the ’small’ setting virtually wipe out the sound from the 2 designated subs? That would make the tower 60’s, which feature 3 midrange speakers and a tweeter, a better choice for a front speaker and it’s cheaper. That’s my only issue with setting my fronts and center channel to ’small’, I don’t want to lose sound from the speakers designated as ’subs’. Do you understand my issue? If I have 4 potential speakers outputting a source sound, I want them all to function. I’m a career musician so my terminology for speakers may be a bit different as I’m used to “the more power, the bigger the speaker you need”. The more volume I’m putting out from a stage is directly proportional to the wattage of the amplifiers and the power handling capability of the speakers and how far they ‘throw’ the sound. That’s why rock concerts have mountains of speakers and lounge acts use small portable sound systems.
Thanks, Johnny
October 2nd, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Hi again Chris, trying to simplify what you’re saying and I’m understanding. If a speaker cabinet is 3-way and I make it ’small’, wouldn’t the designated woofer be virtually sitting there with no output, since it’s designed to work only at low frequencies? Making it ‘large’ would make all 3 speakers function, correct?
Thanks again, Johnny
October 2nd, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Hi Johnny,
If your objective is to have all speaker drivers producing sound to their limits then yes, by all means, don’t turn on bass management (i.e. leave the speakers as Large). But if the objective is to optimize the performance of a system with finite amplifier power and acoustical problems typical of small rooms then you are missing out by leaving your speakers set to Large.
It’s not like the woofers in your tower speakers will be silent if you run them as small. It just means that they will be responsible for content down to 60 Hz or so (or wherever you set the bass management crossover frequency). There are clear acoustical benefits in having low frequency content come from multiple points in the room. But, there are also advantages in bass management and the ability to have a huge increase in room correction performance where it’s needed the most: in the lower octaves.
October 2nd, 2009 at 7:33 pm
Ok, thanks Chris, I’ve experimented and I seem to get the best sound (preference vs reference) if I make my center and surround speakers ’small’ and leave my mains as ‘large’, it’s as if a wall of depth is added across the plane from left speaker, thru center, to right speaker, at least to my ears. I have one further question, my Pioneer AVR has 3 settings for the subwoofer, off, on and something abbreviated “PL S’ or “PL 5′, it seems to make very little difference between on and “PL S”, any idea what that setting is short for? I don’t have my manual anymore, it’s an older 5.1 receiver. Also, there is a ‘crossover’ setting, I’m guessing it’s for the subwoofer, right now it’s set at 100, where would you advise it to be. to let the subwoofer do most of the work?
Thanks, Johnny
October 2nd, 2009 at 9:22 pm
Been reading some articles on setting the crossover for the woofer at a higher level, to let the sub do most of the work and after experimenting with my system, I’ve found out that:
setting the crossover frequency higher, makes a lot more bass come out of my subwoofer. I’ve got 3 croosover selections only on my AVR, they are 100 Hz, 150 Hz and 200 Hz. The 200 setting produces more bass from my system. My subwoofer goes up to 180 Hz with it’s own crossover selection, and I’ve been running it around 150 Hz, not because anyone told me to, but because it pumps out more bass and I love bass, especially on those 5.1 Dolby movies with lots of action and sound effects. So, I guess I’ve answered my own question, I think 150 Hz is my sweet spot. Interesting listening to tv shows where most of the dialog is handled by the center speaker and with my ears up to the fronts, I can hear the mids actually activate and deactivate as the crossover frequency is reached. It’s not a smooth roll off, it’s abrupt, like connecting and disconnecting the speaker wire, but the transition is cleaner when the crossover is lower, but from back in the listening area, the 150 Hz cutoff seems to provide the best solid sound and the surround effect is still very much in play.
Thanks, everyday is a learning opportunity, Johnny
October 11th, 2009 at 11:45 am
What is the most ‘effective’ way to bass manage my system that includes 2 Mythos ST’s as my fronts with their subs in them and an external sub? Primary use is HT and some music, but mostly HT.
I have run fronts as large and all others small with LFE.
October 15th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Dear Chris.
I just bought the Denon 2310, and auto-setup sets all my speakerlevels between -13.5 and 10.5 DB. Howcome? Wouldnt levels between -3.5 and 0 DB make the same result?
Another question:
My center speaker are quite big, the B&W’s LCR600. Should i set it as small or large? My frontunits are B&W 603s3
I DONT have a sub, so i could use the extra depth in bass, but would it be optimal?
Same with the surround speakers, theyre quite large(B&W 601s3), but capable of playing very low freq.
October 15th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Hello Theis,
MultEQ is setting your speaker levels for reference playback. That means that when your volume control is at 0, the internal test tone in the 2310 will measure 75 dB SPL at the listening position. That is the same level at which the dubbing stage was calibrated when the movie was mixed. You don’t have to listen at that level, but at least you know that you can always go to it for reference.
So, the level trims that you see are just relative adjustments made so that you can hit reference at 0 on the master volume.
If you set your Center speaker to Small the bass will be redirected to the Front L and R speakers. It only makes sense to do that if the woofers in those speakers are larger in diameter than what is available in your center speaker. Same for the surrounds: setting them to Small redirects their bass content to the L and R speakers when there is no sub in the system.
October 20th, 2009 at 8:11 am
Hi Chris,
I have a Denon 790 with a Klipsch 5.1 speaker system with 125Hz - 23kHz (center-channel) and 120Hz - 23kHz (satellite) frequency response, and a Klipsch sub with a 31-120Hz frequency response.
What do you recommend the crossover setting on the receiver be set to? 120hz? this would of course be with all speakers set to small.
Thanks in advance.
October 20th, 2009 at 9:39 am
Hi Slava,
I would go with what MultEQ recommends after you run it on the Denon 790. It will be close to the speaker specs, but may be a little different depending on speaker placement.
October 21st, 2009 at 8:51 pm
Hi Chris,
In the article you mentioned that Audyssey MultEQ has an 8x higher resolution in the sub filters than the filters in the other channels.
I thought it was 64x higher resolution for MultEQ and 8x higher for MultEQ XT?
I have quality tower speakers for all channels that are capable down to 40hz. I also have an Onkyo Receiver with MultEQ XT. Do you still recommend crossing over at 60 or 80hz or can I cross over at 40 due to the increased filter resolution of the MultEQ XT vs MultEQ?
Thanks for your input.
October 22nd, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Hi Brian,
You are right. I was referring to MultEQ XT in the article. MultEQ and MultEQ XT in AVR products provide the same resolution for the subwoofer, but MultEQ XT also has an 8x resolution advantage over MultEQ in the satellite speakers. We have a resolution table here for reference:
http://www.audyssey.com/technology/multeq-solutions.html
Yes, I do recommend crossing your speakers to the sub at 60 or 80 Hz to take advantage of this increased resolution.
October 31st, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Hi Chris, just hooked up my new Denon 4810ci last night. The Audyssey software did recommend lowering the sub volume as you posted would happen on newer models. Also, another poster wasn’t sure why tower speakers have large woofers if they should not be sent bass. I wanted to add to that discussion that Direct and PureDirect modes intended for “pure” music audio do not use the subwoofer, as such large woofers are desirable.
After reading your article and follow-up, I have set my huge Klipsch RF-7 fronts to small and LFE+Main was off by default, the system sounds great.
Finally, my question. When I ran Audyssey I stopped after the 3rd listening position and like I said the system sounds great. But then I read in the manual that I should use at least six positions. Does the higher sampling significantly help Audyssey build an algorithm? Can you expand on this please? Should I put the mic half way in between my 3 listening positions, further forward, further back when I only have 3 listening positions? Probably semantics, but I’m curious…
Thanks for your great s/w!
November 1st, 2009 at 9:03 am
Hi Steve,
Yes, the new version lets you set the volume on the back of the sub so that when you calibrate the system the AVR doesn’t run out of level correction range.
The number of measurement positions doesn’t directly correspond to the number of seating positions. The algorithm needs to collect data from the listening area so more measurements give it better information to create the MultEQ filters.
Starting in the main listening position, move the mic about 2′ to the left of it and then to the right of it. Then move about 2′ forward and take three more measurement in parallel to the first three. The last two can be taken about 1′ from the first one and perhaps about 1′ forward. Avoid measuring near the back wall or too far outside the front speakers.
November 3rd, 2009 at 11:50 am
I know fully understand why the speakers should be set to small. I can finally sleep at night without worrying about my full range towers being set to small.
What I don’t understand is what is the best cross over frequency for speakers that the receiver/processor sets as large? I understand that the answer will vary because some receivers set every speaker capable of below 80hz as large and some below 40hz. I have an Onkyo PR-SC886. It set my mains and center as large. My mains are rated down to 22hz and the center is rated down to 38hz. What would you recommend I cross them at? The 886 crossover starts at 40hz and can be raised in 5hz increments.
November 3rd, 2009 at 12:04 pm
Hi Casey,
Onkyo uses 40 Hz as the criterion to set speakers to Full Range (Large). So, it would seem that your speakers exhibited a roll off below that frequency and were thus set that way by Onkyo.
The benefit of crossing over to the sub at a higher point is that it allows the low frequency content to be corrected by the MultEQ filters in the sub channel. They have 8x more resolution than what is possible in the satellite channels.
A good place to start is 60 or 80 Hz as the crossover.
November 3rd, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Could you please explain how to decide what to set the cross over to for a speaker that is capable of below 40hz? You said 60 or 80hz is a good place to start. Why not start at 40hz, 45hz, etc?
I think most people here will understand after reading this article why to set all speakers to small. Deciding what cross over setting to use seems to be much more complicated for those of us who have low hz capable speakers.
November 3rd, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Hi Casey,
It’s not a matter of capability of the speaker. The benefits of crossing over at a higher point than what the speaker is “capable” of are:
1) improved headroom in the AVR amp because it doesn’t have to worry about the lower frequency range
2) 8x improved resolution in the MultEQ correction available in the subwoofer channel.
Both of these point to sending “more” content (i.e. a higher crossover point). The disadvantage of moving higher is the potential localization of low frequencies from the sub rather than the speaker they were mixed for. This starts to become an issue above 80 Hz and hence my recommendation to start at 60-80 Hz.
The MultEQ Pro software actually performs a more advanced check to see where the optimum blend would be (in amplitude and phase) between each speaker and sub. But, in the AVR version of MultEQ this added processing power is not available in the built-in processors so we recommend the 60-80 Hz rule-of-thumb.
November 7th, 2009 at 9:20 am
Chris,
this was a great read! I still have some doubts:
You said that for the speakers, the crossover frequency decides what goes in to the speaker and what is redirected to the subwoofer.
What is not clear to me yet is the meaning of the subwoofer crossover (or more precisely the LPF of LFE). What happens to the frequencies higher than this settings and where should this setting be set to?
Thanks!
November 8th, 2009 at 8:13 am
Hi Giovanni,
LPF stands for low pass filter. A crossover requires an LPF and an HPF (high pass filter) to work together. The LPF allows the low frequencies to “pass through” and they are sent to the sub. The HPF takes care of the remaining higher frequencies and they are sent to the satellite speakers.
The LFE LPF is an entirely different thing. It’s not a crossover (because it doesn’t come with a corresponding HPF). It is a filter that is applied only to the separate LFE track that is found in surround content. This low frequency track is added in the mix by the people producing the content. It is limited to 120 Hz and below and so the LPF LFE should always be set to 120 Hz.
November 8th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Chris,
thanks, this is very helpful! As a follow up I have another couple of considerations:
Since you want to have frequencies down to around 80Hz to be localized, the use of small speakers that can only go down to 120Hz or so is never acceptable, because you are forced to redirect frequencies between 80Hz and 120Hz to the sub, where they don’t belong. Am i correct?
Also, if the system is exclusively used for movies and TV series, is there any reason for having front speakers bigger than the surround speakers?
Thanks,
Giovanni
November 8th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
Hi Giovanni,
It’s not that you “want” to have frequencies localized down to 80 Hz. That is the approximate limit that was found to apply to most listeners. So, if you are going to send bass to a separate speaker (a sub) then you want to make sure you are sending it content that will not be recognized as coming from a different direction.
Generally, one would not want to redirect bass above 80 Hz (or so) to the sub. But, if you have small speakers that can’t reproduce content that low then you have to pick the lesser of two evils: endure some localization or live with a big hole in the mid-bass response. It’s a personal choice, but in my opinion a little unwanted localization is easier to swallow than a big dip in the response.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:22 am
Hi, I have a Pioneer VSX-916 AV amp with JAMO A102HCS5 on the front and rear channels (to act like satellite speakers). Wasn’t happy with the overall sound coming from the JAMO centers so have upgraded to a Mordaunt Short 902C centre to give my setup more depth from the front. In addition i have replaced the Jamo sub with a Ruark Vita 50 subwoofer. I have changed the AV amp setting to SMALL for front/center/surr.
To ensure I have the best sound reproductions should I rerun the amps MCACC (auto setup). Is there anything else I need to consider i.e. frequency cross over setting on AMP?
November 18th, 2009 at 5:12 am
I think what i’m trying to get at is and follows on from the earlier blogger what is the most suitable AMP cross over configuraton for my Jamos/MS. Specs say frequency response for Jamos is 150 - 20,000 Hz and Mordaunt Short 905c 60-22,000HZ which begs the question what should i set the amp crossover too?
November 18th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Hi Munish,
It’s not wise to go by the published response range for a speaker because that almost never takes into consideration the effects of the room. I am not familiar with how MCACC determines crossovers, but I would suggest that you run the calibration again since you changed speakers.
November 19th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Hi Chris,
I have an AVR-3808 that I just upgraded to 3808A, via the Audyssey upgrade package. I haven’t had the time yet to actually recalibrate the system due to work, but I’m going crazy anticipating doing so.
I am very happy to have read this page before re-running the analysis of my room eq, if for no other reason than to give me the peace of mind that I am making the best choices to optimise the sound in my listening room. ie small speakers.. 80 hz crossover… etc. Above you have addressed all of my questions so I just say thank you for your time and invaluable input. You give our passion for home cinema sound more to be passionate about. I belive you must share this same passion.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:22 am
Perfect answer!
“So, you ask, why was this mode created? Because some people can’t sleep at night if their speakers are set to Small. They don’t realize that Small means: let the bass management system do the job it was designed to do.”
Dear Chris I am fan of your patience, truely amazing
Please dont let these answer lost at internet.
Cordial Regards,
November 27th, 2009 at 12:04 am
Hi Chris,
I have an Onkyo TX-SR805 and was wondering who determines the slopes of the crossover after I select the frequency of 80hz for both the speakers and subwoofer - Audyssey or Onkyo. I had a large floor standing setup that I replaced with a smaller bookshelf pair for the fronts. I ran Audyssey and manually set the crossover to 80hz. If Audyssey is not correcting anything below the -3db mark, then although it may have fixed the floorstanders frequency response with the subwoofer in terms of properly aligning them with the right slopes, the bookshelf speakers filter response is going to be what? Will there be a 12db/octave filter arbitrarily hoping my speakers drop 12db on their own as that many receivers do or does audyssey change that - which would mean it does correct pass the -3db point?
Thanks,
Amit
November 28th, 2009 at 8:49 am
Hi Amit,
The crossover slopes are fixed. Nearly every AVR manufacturer uses what are called Linkwitz-Riley crossovers. They consist of two 2nd order (12 dB/octave) cascaded filters for the lowpass to the subwoofer and one 2nd order filter for the highpass filter to the satellite. The acoustical response of the speaker adds another 2nd order highpass that combines with the electrical 2nd order that is applied by the bass management system.
The crossover frequency is determined using the –3 dB roll off point that MultEQ determines during the measurements. MultEQ stops correction below that point to avoid potentially overdriving a speaker beyond its capabilities. It’s OK to manually set a higher crossover point than what was measured. The high and lowpass filters will be moved to that point.
November 28th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
Hi Chris,
I just received and set up a Denon AVR-3310ci receiver and ran the Audyssey set up for the first time today. I set my fronts and center channel to “small” after Audyssey set them to large and I kept my surrounds at small. I changed the front crossover to 60hz and center crossover to 60 hz after Audyssey set them to 40hz. I kept my surround crossover at the 80hz that Audyssey came up with. My subwoofer mode is set to LFE NOT LFE + Main and the LPF for LFE setting is set to 120hz.
My question is if this all correct with the speakers I have. I own 2 definitive technology BP7004’s w/ 300 watt powered subs in each tower, a definitve technology C/L/R2300 w/ an 8″ powered subwoofer and 2 def tech surrounds. I have a sub cable going to each tower and the center channel so I can utilize the powered subs in all 3 speakers. So knowing this, are the settings I have correct? All the posts seem to ask questions about a seperate sub which I don’t have. I use the powered subs built into the 2 tower speakers and center channel as previously stated. Thx for the assist!
November 29th, 2009 at 8:30 am
Hi Woj,
As I pointed out in my blog, it’s not Audyssey that sets the speakers to Large. In your case it’s Denon. They use 40 Hz as the criterion to decide what is Large and what is Small.
I’m not sure I understood how your subs are connected. The correct way would be to send them a signal from the Sub out of the 3310. You would then use y-cord splitters to feed all the powered subs from that signal. That will give you proper bass management in the 3310 and also the benefit of the higher resolution MultEQ XT filters in the subwoofer channel. Some people connect these subs to the L and R line level outputs and then rely on the internal speaker crossover. That is less optimal because MultEQ doesn’t get to ping the woofers as subs and you lose the benefit of the added filter resolution in the sub channel.
November 29th, 2009 at 11:39 am
Hey Chris,
You hit the nail on the head how I have my powered subs that are built in to the front and center channel speakers hooked up. I have my sub cable coming out of the “sub out” on the 3310 and then I have the y splitters with additional sub cables going to each speaker. It’s nice to have confirmed that I’m getting proper bass management this way
So my question then still remains about my settings as I described above. Specifically, my fronts and center being set to 60 hz and the LPF for LFE set to 120hz. I believe I read in one of ur responses to Giovanni that this setting should always be set to 120hz however I just wanted to verify knowing the speakers I own.
One last point. My speakers are bipolar and I read that this type of speaker design can fool Audyssey during the auto setup since sound comes out the rear panel and tends to get missed. I supppose I confirmed this because I had to perform step 2 around 4 times since I kept getting phase errors on my front and center channel speakers when I know they are hooked up right. Will there be a correction at some point to address these type of speakers? Thx again for ur help!
December 4th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Chris,
After reading the majority of this post I have a question about my Onkyo 607 Audyssey EQ setup.
From what I understand it sounds like you are saying that I should not trust the automatic Audyssey calibration due to the way the manufacturers set what is a large and small speaker.
I ask because my setup has front speakers with 15″ subs. My powered sub is only 10″ and easily the cheapest speaker in my setup.
The Audyssey EQ set the crossover for all my speakers to your liking except the fronts it set to 40hz. Should I raise that up? Or since my fronts have larger and better quality subs than my powered sub should I leave it alone or even set it to full band with double bass?
Thanks so much for helping us out with your great technology!!
December 5th, 2009 at 12:28 am
Hi Kevin,
It would be a little odd for me to say: “don’t trust the automatic Audyssey calibration” don’t you think? What I am saying is that Audyssey is not “allowed” to make the selection of Large or Small and so you should always check that all your speakers are set to Small in the AVR if you have a subwoofer.
If your fronts speakers have subs, how are they connected? If you connect the sub out of the AVR to these two subs then all is fine. But, if you let the built-in filters in your speakers do the crossover to the subs then you won’t have the benefit of the 8x resolution improvement that MultEQ gives in the subwoofer channel.
If your front subs are truly better and they provide line level in then you should connect them to the line level sub out of the AVR (with a y-cord) and make them the main system subs.
December 7th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
I am an A/V newbie and very confused. I have a Denon 2310 with the Definitive Technology ProCinema 600 speaker package. Running everything 5.1 Is there a quick and dirty way for me to know what I should manually change all the settings to after I run the auto-setup? Obviously it gets set to “large” fronts, LFE+Main, etc.
Seems after running Audyssey, I should change my fronts to “small”, have LFE only and not LFE+Main…. but all the different options for Hz stuff is wearing me thin. I can follow the Denon manual, but simply can’t figure out what I should change, and to what.
Having the 3-4 possible DefTech setup options doesn’t help, and those options conflict with what I read here.
December 7th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Also, does anyone recommend which DefTech ProCinema 600 speaker setup I should simply use (I hate testing all these DefTech options), and what the LPF knob on the back of my Sub should be set on before running Audyssey?
Per Denon, if I can’t turn it OFF, it says to turn it up to the highest level.
Then, after Audyssey setup, do I turn that back down to 10-12 o’clock as DefTech says (assuming you are using any variation of Option 1 setup)?
December 8th, 2009 at 12:14 am
Hi Gary,
You need to go in the Manual Setup Menu of the 2310. Then select Speaker Setup –> Speaker Config. If any speakers are showing as Large, change them to Small. This will allow proper bass management.
Then go to Speaker Setup –>Crossover Frequency and select 80 Hz.
Finally, go to Speaker Setup –>Bass Setting and set the Subwoofer mode to LFE (not LFE+Main).
The LPF knob on the back of your sub should be set to the highest frequency and left there all the time.
December 8th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Hey Chris,
Thanks. Spent few hours last night… and think I am almost there… just a few more questions:
1. Which of these DefTech hookup methods should I use?
a. DefTech Method 1 (”Variation on the Method 1 Optional Hookup”), which wires the front L&R speakers thru the Sub, AND connects the sub to receiver via low-level RCA cable, or
b. DefTech Method 2, which wires the front L&R speakers directly to the receiver, AND connects the sub to receiver via low-leve RCA cable
2. Do I manually make the Speaker Setup->Crossover Frequency = 80 Hz no matter what Audyssey gave it, under either method?
3. If the answer to my first question is Method 2, then why does DefTech “highly recommend” Method 1?
Re: What I’ve done thus far:
I initially used Method 1. If that is correct, then I assume I would make the manual changes as you suggest after running Audyssey, because Audyssey will initially set the fronts to Large, with Bass Setting as LFE+Main, etc.
I got home last night and re-wired the front L&R speakers directly to the receiver (Method 2), set my sub knob at 12 o’clock, turned the LPF knob on the back of the sub to its highest frequency, then ran Audyssey. This method resulted in Audyssey setting everything as you say, except I believe it set the Crossover to 120 Hz.
December 8th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Sorry.. would like to add a question Chris:
What about the LPF for LFE setting also under Speaker Setup->Bass Setting……. what should that be, under both hookup methods? 80 Hz as well?
Thanks in advance…. help like this is priceless.
December 8th, 2009 at 9:45 pm
Hi Gary,
Method 2 is the best way to make sure that proper bass management is performed. It’s always better to do that in the AVR rather than the speaker. So, yes, connect the speakers to the AVR amplifiers and then connect the subwoofer to the sub pre-out on the AVR.
80 Hz is a typical recommendation. If MultEQ finds a roll off point higher than 80 Hz then don’t change it. But, if any of your speakers are set to Large, then change those to 80 Hz.
Audyssey doesn’t set speakers to Large or Small and most certainly doesn’t set the sub to LFE+Main. These are decisions that the AVR makes. We recommend that if there is a subwoofer in the system, then all speakers should be set to Small and the sub mode should be LFE (not LFE+Main).
The LPF setting for the LFE channel should always be 120 Hz. This is not a crossover, but a filter that applies only to the separate LFE track found in 5.1 content.
December 9th, 2009 at 7:26 am
I am wired via Method 2, all speakers are set to ’small’, and the sub mode is LFE. It is definitely much better with the receiver doing the bass management and all speakers to ’small’.
The LPF-LFE was originally set at 120 Hz. I changed it last night to 80 Hz but per your response I will put it back tonight.
I changed the Speaker Setup–>Crossover Frequency to 80 Hz last night as well. Audyssey set it as ‘Advanced’, with speaker settings set anywhere from 120 Hz to 150 Hz (front, center, rear surrounds). Once you change ‘Advanced’ to 80 Hz, it just sets that for all of them and you don’t get options for front, center, etc.
It sounds fantastic and I think I am perfectly set up…. except…. last possible tweak… should I change the Crossover back to ‘Advanced’ to use the settings (120, 150, etc.) that Audyssey gave me?
Again… thanks for your help Chris. You have a fantastic product and being able to ask questions and get answers like this is priceless.
December 10th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Hi Chris,
First, let me say that Audyssey has done some very good things to my system’s sound. Yet, one issue remains unresolved. I have a Denon 4308, with capable floorstanders (below 30Hz) and an Epik Sentinel sub. My room is large, with openings to other rooms, cathedral ceilings, and acoustically untreated.
My goal was to leave the sub out for music, or simply to cross it low (say 40Hz or 60Hz). However Audyssey reduces my front’s 63-83Hz range by a whooping 20db! (I get less than 60db at reference). Then it significantly pumps up the 30-55Hz range to 85db. I am ok with the latter (I like a small “house curve”) but it is a bit empty in the punchy mid bass. I have noticed the same effects after several calibration efforts, and following the directions accurately.
So, I cross my sub higher at 90Hz. However, the response (as measured with REW) is not as smooth and moreover I feel my floorstanders have a better sound at mid bass than my sub.
To my surprise, and contrary to your suggestions in this blog, I got a smoother curve by setting LFE+MAINs and bass replicated below 90Hz. I have to reduce a bit the sub volume, which is also ok as Audyssey pumps the sub to 92db at 20Hz at reference level which is too much.
Currently, I am still looking for a way to get the 63-83Hz back for my fronts and cross the sub lower (where it excels). I have noticed that I have a 70-80Hz null on the right measurement position (2 feet from center). Should I just leave that measurement out? Or is it the low resolution of the MultEQxt at that range for the fronts?
Finally, another question that’s bugging me. Although I have matched the levels both by Audyssey and manually by a meter to reference level (75 db), REW shows the sub to be 10-17db hot below 40Hz. What can I do here?
Any suggestions are welcomed. Keep up the good work!
December 10th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Hi Andreas,
I doubt that what you are seeing is a cut by MultEQ. If you are looking at the graphs in the 4308, you will find that Denon shows the MultEQ filter including the speaker roll-off. So, most likely what you are seeing is the MultEQ filter stopping its correction to match the measured roll-off of your speakers.
You say that you “cross your sub higher at 90 Hz”. But, I think that you may be referring to the setting of the LFE lowpass filter. That is not a crossover. It is the filter that is applied only to the separate LFE track in 5.1 content. It is unfortunate that this is even a setting in the AVR. That content is limited during encoding to 120 Hz so the LPF should always be set to 120 Hz. The crossover of each speaker to the sub is determined by the setting you see in the speaker crossover menu. I assume you have made sure that none of the speakers are set to Large and each has a crossover frequency associated with it.
I recommend against using LFE+Main because it ends up duplicating content in the sub and the speakers and could lead to boomy bass.
Finally, measuring with REW is good if you have the ability to take multiple measurements (in the same locations that you used for MultEQ) and then averaging them. If you just take a single measurement you will not get very meaningful data. I am not familiar with how REW measures SPL and what the calibration of your mic looks like. Note also, that if Dynamic EQ is engaged and you have the master volume at something below 0 (ref) then you should expect to see a boost in the low frequencies.
December 10th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Thanks for the prompt reply:
(a) I am looking at the REW graphs, made with a RS33-2050 SPL meter and the calibration file from hometheatershack.
(b) The Denon graphs actually show that Denon is boosting from 60Hz lower so it cannot be the roll off. As I said I get 85db from my fronts at 40Hz.
(c) I am not referring to the LPF. I have LPF higher than 120Hz actually. I am referring to Denon’s crossover for the fronts. I have set it to 90Hz. Both with fronts as small and fronts as Large with LFE+Mains on.
(d) I took many measurements mainly from my center position but also from the Audyssey measurement positions. But I have not averaged them. This is a good idea which I will do.
(e) I guess I can try calibrating only for 1 seat and let the rest of the people in the sofa suffer
(f) I understand the Dynamic EQ issues when measuring. I had to manually reduce the input level at -10db so I can play at reference and get 75db. Then I seemed to like it, like that and left it there.
Finally, I do believe that LFE+Mains has its place in certain situations. When the sub level is lowered it does a fine job smoothing out the response. Not the optimal solution but not bad.
December 13th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Hi Chris,
Excellant info in your answers some of which I have always wondered about. I just bought a Denon 4310CI and 2 Definitive RCS-II in ceiling speakers as wides for DSX. I am also buying the Definitive 10/10 in wall sub with a 600 sub amp. Just want to confirm that after I install this equipment I can then turn the built in subs in my Definitive towers off and set them to small with a crossover at 80 HZ and re-run Audyssey which by the way even without a sub-woofer and using my fronts set to Large sounds great but the bass just is not quite right and I pretty sure never will be until I do the above. Does this sound correct?
Thanks
December 14th, 2009 at 8:48 am
Hi Stephen,
Another option is to use the subs in your towers as part of the subwoofer channel. There are benefits in distributing the bass from multiple sources and so you could simply y-cord the sub output of the 4310 to the two tower subs and your main sub. Then run MultEQ and let it ping the three subs as “one”.
December 14th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Good suggestion but I am trying to think how to do that since my 4310 has one sub output. I have that output Y-plugged right now to the 2 towers but with the new sub that output will have to o top the sub amp.???
December 14th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
You just need to y-cord one of the y-cord outputs (total of three cables) to run to all three subs. Or maybe your big sub has a pass-through output?
December 20th, 2009 at 5:38 am
Chris,
I have a Integra DHC-80.1 Preamp which will be driving (2) NHT C4, 3C, (2) C3, and (2) Absolute Zero’s. The NHT C4 speakers have 4 way bass reflex and 10″ bass with 27HZ to 20KHZ. The fronts will be controlled by the DHC-80.1. The question I have, what should I do with the 10″ bass? I have a NHT X2 with low pass, high pass, phase control, boundary EQ, and gain control which could control my (2) NHT A1 (200) amps to the 10″ bass. My question is should I use the 2 Subwoofer Pre Out XLR’s and send them to the Nht X2 then to the A1 or bypass the X2 and go to the A1. If I go to the X2, what should I set the X2 controls to when I do a Audyssey setup.
Thanks
December 20th, 2009 at 9:09 am
Hi Dana,
The best room correction results will be achieved if you feed the woofers with the bass managed signal from the 80.1. Use a y-cord connected to the sub line level output of the 80.1 and make sure none of the speakers are set to Full Range by Integra.
December 28th, 2009 at 1:41 am
Hi Chris,
I was searching the web for an answer on why the auto-setup on my Denon avr-2809 (with Audyssey MultEQ XT) would set my front speakers to small when I found this blog.
For this christmas i finaly added a subwoofer for my home-theater system. The system now consists of:
- Denon avr-2809
- Klipsch 5.1 RF-62/RC-62/RW-12d/RS-52
The user manual for both the RF-62 and the RW-12d recomends setting the fronts to large/full-range. Audyssey won’t make up it’s mind if it will set the fronts to large or small. Just now I ran an auto-setup with measuring seven listening positions, and Audyssey chose large, yesterday I did the same with five or six listening positions and it chose small.
(The room (living room) may be a difficult room since it’s not completely square and have several openings to other rooms).
What to do, small or large setting on the front speakers?
Ole A
Norway
December 28th, 2009 at 8:17 am
Hi Ole,
Audyssey will not “make up its mind” because it is not responsible for setting speakers to Small and Large. If it was up to Audyssey then ALL speakers would be set to Small, if there is a subwoofer in the system, because that simply means: turn on bass management in the AVR.
MultEQ analyzes the roll off point of each speaker when it takes measurements. It uses the information from all measurements to decide this so there can be variations depending on the placement of the mic. Denon uses 40 Hz as the decision point to call speakers Large or Small. So, it sounds like your speakers are measuring very close to that.
As I mention in the blog you should always manually set the speakers to Small after calibration is finished. That way you have the benefit of bass management and the benefit of the 8x higher resolution MultEQ filters in the subwoofer channel.
December 28th, 2009 at 9:39 am
I’m curious about the LFE channel when the fronts are set to large. I’ve got two Altec 15″ coaxial studio monitors as my fronts and no sub. The rest of the 7.x system is made up of Klipsch all set to small.
The Denon 3808ci correctly identifies the speakers as large and knows there isn’t a sub. The MultiEQ does a pretty nice job of balancing everything given the Altec’s are about 10x as efficient as the Klipsch.
What happens to the LFE channel if there is no sub? Does it get redirected to the front L+R or is it lost without an installed sub?
December 28th, 2009 at 9:42 am
Hi John,
Yes, that’s right. If there is no subwoofer in the system then the following happens:
–The front L and R speakers are automatically set to Large
–Bass from other speakers in the system that are set to Small is redirected to the L and R speakers
–The LFE track content is also sent to the L and R speakers
December 28th, 2009 at 10:02 am
Hi again Chris,
Thanks for making me a little wiser.
But when all speakers are set to small and a subwoofer is in use, it’s still better to have good, large speakers with midrange woofers then the small speakers with only treble elements found in cheep/small home-theater systems, isn’t it?
Would’nt there (in a small 5.1 system) be a hole in the soundpicture between the subwoofer’s upper frequenzy limit (for examlpe 80Hz) and the small speakers lower frequenzy limit with just treble elements and no midrange woofers to fill in?
Anyway, after your last replay I changed the setting for the front speakers from large to small. Then I ran a test watching the intro of the quantum of solace on bluray and it sounds better then befor now that the speakers can consentrate more on mid and high range frequenzy, leaving all of the lower range frequenzy to the subwoofer.
Thanks again.
Ole A
Norway
December 28th, 2009 at 10:30 am
Hi Ole,
Yes, the recommendation for using bass management (i.e. setting speakers to Small) is not an invitation to use lower quality speakers! It is unfortunate that the industry chose the names Large and Small because everyone associates Large with being “better” than Small.
A proper system should have satellite speakers that extend low enough to blend with a subwoofer that extends below the limits of the speakers. The tiny boxes with just tweeters do not fall in that category as they have no capability to extend low enough to “reach” the sub and therefore they always leave a hole in the response.
January 1st, 2010 at 8:01 am
Chris,
From your response (126) I should not use the NHT X2 active crossover for bi amping and use a
y-cord connected to the sub line level output of the Integra 80.1
My question is why wouldn’t I use the two sub PRE OUT XlR’S from my Integra 80.1 and connect each one to my NHT A1 amps?
Dana
January 1st, 2010 at 12:10 pm
Hi Dana,
You could do that as well.
January 1st, 2010 at 1:41 pm
Chris,
Thanks for your help.
Dana
January 12th, 2010 at 9:09 am
Chris,
I bought myself a Christmas present: Klipsch RF-62 tower speakers and a Klipsch RPW-10 subwoofer at a great deal. I bi-wired my tower speakers (bi-amping isnot a choice for me). I used a quality subwoofer cable and plugged it into my LFE port on my subwoofer. I read your entire blog and for the first time I am actually happy I got the sub. Setting the speakers to small is such a smart idea. I set the sub crossover in my Onkyo TX-SR504 receiver to 80hz (is that okay)? I turned off double base. Now to finish off my settings, I need to address the knobs on the back of my sub. Please tell me what to set the following: I have a Phase switch that either selects 0 degrees or 180 degress; one Low-Pass knob that goes from 40hz to 120 hz; and a gain knob that is not calibrated and goes from minimum to maximum. If I get these set right and I’ll drink a beer and just enjoy! If I can push my luck a little further, I’d like to ask one other question concerning the settings for my speakers in the the receiver. Front Left and Right and the sub (my only speakers) go from -12db to +12db. I don’t understand that at all. Thanks for a quick reply.
January 12th, 2010 at 11:55 am
Hi,
You will find subwoofer setup tips here on Ask Audyssey:
http://ask.audyssey.com/forums/84181/entries/76175
Phase should be 0° and the lowpass filter should be set to the highest frequency possible and left there as it interferes with proper bass management that is best left to the AVR.
Please keep in mind that there is no such thing as a “sub crossover”. A crossover is applied to the satellite and sub simultaneously and requires two filters: one that sends the high frequencies to the satellite and one that sends the low frequencies to the sub. The confusion comes because manufacturers are allowing consumers to also set the LFE filter for the subwoofer. That is a filter that only applies to the separate LFE track found in 5.1 content and not to the bass from all the speakers. It should always be set to 120 Hz because content in that track is authored up to 120 Hz.
The range of volume trim adjustments allowed in the AVR is from –12 dB to +12 dB. These are relative settings that are applied to each speaker and sub so that they all play at the same level as you move the master volume up and down. MultEQ determines what these relative adjustments should be based on the room measurements. For example, speakers that are more sensitive or are closer to you will have to be turned down to match the level of speakers farther away. Many times, the sub trim is reported at –12 dB. That is a clear indication that the volume control on the back of the sub is turned up too high and the AVR may be running out of trim correction range. We suggest that you turn down the sub volume and run MultEQ again to make sure you are within range.
January 12th, 2010 at 12:55 pm
Chris,
I don’t have a MultEQ nor money at this time. Since the sub and front speakers (I have only 3) are equal distance (about 10 feet in front of the best seat for listening) I guess 0 would be a good starting point for volume trim adjustments in the AVR??
I understand setting the Low Pass on my sub at 120 HZ, but the crossover setting in my receiver I set a 80HZ correct? I think it is great that guys like you are willing to share your knowledge with those of us that are hungry to learn. Thank you.
January 12th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
Actually 0 on the trims is probably only OK for the three speakers, but not for the sub as it has completely different gain. It’s quite difficult to accurately set the sub level manually. An SPL meter and a narrowband test tone (your receiver probably generates this) can get you good results for the main speakers, but that method isn’t very accurate for the sub. It’s a good starting point though and you should do it if you have a meter.
Yes, set the low pass on the sub at the highest available setting. 80 Hz is a very typical choice for crossovers.
January 17th, 2010 at 11:40 pm
Hi Chris,
Thanks for interesting topic, I have a question on setting the Front speakers to large or small. I am using Pioneer 818 currently, now I have 2 options,
1) Set all speakers to small and set subwoofer to ON.
2) Set front speakers to large and set subwoofer to TRUE. By setting sub woofer to true, the bass will always goto the sub woofer even when the Front speakers are set to large.
Which setting gives better result?
Best Regards,
Eugene
January 18th, 2010 at 9:31 am
Hi Eugene,
TRUE seems to be the Pioneer notation for what others call LFE+Main or Double Bass. It’s not recommended at all because it ends up with overlapping bass in the subwoofer and satellites.
I recommend you set your speakers to Small and sub to On.
January 20th, 2010 at 1:27 am
Thanks Chris, I will try your suggestion tonight. It is PLUS function actually. Below is the definition I get from the user manual. By the way, I am not using Satellite speakers, I am using floor stand front speaker ranges from 40hz to 50khz.
“PLUS setting if you want the subwoofer to output bass sound continuously or you want deeper bass (the bass frequencies that would normally come out from the front and center speakers are also routed to the subwoofer)”
January 20th, 2010 at 7:11 am
Hi Eugene,
Sounds good. Satellites is the term typically used for speakers when you have a bass managed system with a subwoofer. It doesn’t matter if they are towers or bookshelves. It simply indicates that you are, indeed, using bass management.
January 20th, 2010 at 8:55 am
Hi Chris,
Thanks again for your suggestion, I am happy with my sound now, btw, I have another suggestion from my friend, below is his suggestion,
“You can connect the in-line in the subwoofer to the main speakers.
Then you feed the speakers out-put from the Amp in to this sub, then from the sub speaker out-put to your main speakers.
Other surround channels are like usual.
For your amp setting, u can turn of the subwoofer mode, and set the main speaker (large). Normally this will produce better bass output and again better intergration with your main speakers.”
How about this suggestion? Any comment? Hope to hear from you again, Thanks.
January 20th, 2010 at 9:02 am
Hi Eugene,
No! That is not a good way to hook up the system for the following reason: The analog filters in the subwoofer are not the correct order to produce a good blend with the main speakers. You will end up with boomy bass in the overlap region because of that.
January 20th, 2010 at 6:19 pm
Hi Chris, I don’t mean to beat a dead horse but I have to ask if I understand this right. I will be using the Denon 3808 and 2 def tech 7004’s with the built-in 300 watt subs as the two front mains, a def tech 2002 (no built-in sub)for the center, a martin logan dynamo separate sub, and 2 def tech bp2x as the surrounds. After all the reading from earlier posts, this is what I think I should be doing. Set the fronts, center, and surrounds all to small. Utilize 2 y-adapters so I can bring 3 lfe/sub outs to my 3 subs (one in each of the front main def tech and one to the sep. martin logan. Set the Denon 3808 to LFE (not LFE + main), Subwoofer Yes. Then with these settings run the Audyssey MultEQ. Do I have this right or is there anything I’m not understanding. Thanks so much for helping us all. Regards, Jim
January 21st, 2010 at 9:00 am
Jim, set all your speakers to small and sub with a 80 hz crossover. If you listen to music, then set your mains to large and listen to 2 channel as most people with good large mains listen that way. I have Polk SDA SRS 2.3TL’s for mains and I have them set to small when doing movies. This is the best way to do it as you can then use a standalone EQ like SMS-1, BFD, or Anti Mode 8033 to EQ the sub bass for the room. Having mains set to large, just how do you EQ your bass for the room?
Bill
January 21st, 2010 at 9:04 am
Bill beat me to it, but I agree with his advice. If you want the most advanced MultEQ solution for your subs, then you should consider the SVS AS-EQ1. It will double the resolution of the MultEQ XT filters available in the 3808 and also use a sophisticated method to blend the subs.
January 21st, 2010 at 7:29 pm
Hi Chris,
After Auto tuning, if I feel the bass is lack of punch, can I increase the channel level for sub woofer, or I just increase the volume at the sub woofer itself, any different between these 2 methods?
Another question is,
2 identical subwoofer (8″)
vs
1 sub woofer (10″/12″)
Which one will gives me better bass?
Basically, my problem is the only option for me to put my sub woofer is at the middle of my bedroom. I wish I can hear more realistic gun shooting/ boom sound while watching movie. Any suggestion?
Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks.
January 21st, 2010 at 9:18 pm
Hi Eugene,
Yes, you can change the sub level to your own preference if you think the reference level is too low. It’s best to do that in the AVR menu so you can always go back to the reference setting. You can read more about Reference vs Preference here:
http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/reference-vs-preference/
A 12″ sub will play deeper than two 8″ subs, but the two subs will most likely give you a smoother response. The middle of the room is usually where there is a big acoustic null and so putting a sub there (or sitting there) can result in diminished bass.
January 25th, 2010 at 5:32 am
Hi Chris,
I found this in the internet,
“You need to set the crossover on the receiver’s menu and not the subwoofer. If your main front speakers are full-size with good bass response, set the low pass filter to 80Hz. If your main speakers are small, bookshelf, satellite, or in-wall, set the low pass filter in the 100 to 120Hz range. According to the Recording Academy recommendations, selecting a frequency between 80 and 100Hz will produce the best results.”
So, I just need to follow the frequency for main front speakers right? My front speaker frequency ranges from 40hz -> 50khz, and all others 3 speakers (Center & surround) ranges from 85hz -> 20khz.
Only 3 options available for Xover frequency, 50 Hz, 80 Hz, 100 Hz. If to follow the lowest frequency of all my speakers, the crossover should be set to 100hz. But if follow the lowest frequency for Front speakers only, Then my Xover frequency can set as low as 50 Hz, Any comments?
January 25th, 2010 at 7:12 am
Hi Eugene,
It’s always a challenge setting the crossover on a product that doesn’t allow you to set it at different values for the front and (typically) smaller surrounds. I think that 80 Hz will be your best bet in this situation.
January 25th, 2010 at 8:20 am
Hi Chris,
Thanks for everything, I have done my setup and setting perfectly now. =)
Things sure wouldn’t be running smooth if without your guide. Thanks again.
January 25th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
Audyssey for Dummies? Chris, I really appreciate your posts and think if I keep reading them and trying things I will sooner or later achieve satisfactory results. But I do wish I could find it all in one place. I can tell you for sure that’s not the Denon 789 manual.
I’m now going to turn off LFE+main and see if I can convince the system that my mains are SMALL even though they have quite serious woofers in them.
Thanks,
Jon
January 25th, 2010 at 8:26 pm
Hi Jon,
Great suggestion. We’ll think about the book idea!
Your comment epitomizes the nature of the problem: naming something LARGE and SMALL in a male-dominated hobby is just bad marketing. Please get over the angst and go with the technologically correct solution: small is beautiful! Your ears will thank you for it.
January 26th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
Chris,
Here is my problem.
I have a sub that rolls off pretty quickly above 100hz as noted using test tones with multiEQ turned off. Plays 20 to 100hz very well though. MultiEQ is setting my surrounds to a BM crossover of 150 hz. So it is sending 150 hz and below from the surround channel to my sub, even though my sub doesn’t play 100+hz well even at reference volume. I checked my surrounds with an SPL meter (I know its not nearly as sophisticated as multieq). I found that the SPL really doesn’t roll off until below 100 hz. Now looking at the target EQ curves that multiEQ creates it looks like it should be able to provide filtering for the surrounds all the way down to nearly 50 hz.
I would like to be able to set my surrounds to 100hz crossover because I know my sub can handle 100hz and below, but I keep on hearing that I should not decrease my speaker crossover because multiEQ doesn’t filter below the crossover point that it set (namely 150hz in this case). Does that mean if I manually decrease to 100hz I will not hear any sound from 100 to 150 hz from the surround channel or just unfiltered sound from the surround channel in that range? I am using a Denon 4810CI receiver btw.
Also I noticed when using the test tones that above 100hz I can tell that the sound is coming from the direction of the subwoofer. Seems like this would defeat the purpose of directional surround.
I really don’t want to hear “get new speakers” because according to my admittedly meager SPL test and from what I can tell by looking at the audyssey target curve graphics the surround speakers I have should work just fine down to 100hz.
January 26th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
Hi Nate,
An SPL meter in one spot is not really a very reliable way to test the response of speakers and subs. Particularly if you are using sine tones that are extremely susceptible to standing waves in the room. It’s why we spent 6 years of research trying to figure out how to measure the room/speaker system and how to combine the information from multiple mic positions.
I won’t tell you to get new speakers. But, you will have to live with a hole in your response… You can decrease the crossover to 100 Hz manually, but we do not recommend it. It’s not that you will be missing the sound in that region because of that. It’s already not really there to begin with!
January 29th, 2010 at 6:55 am
Hi Chris,
Sorry if this has been discussed in the past, but here it is, and this is really important.
I have the Onkyo TX-SR805 that I’m using in one of my rooms. I did the Audyssey MultEQ setup with 8 positions, according to the Guide.
Now, all my speakers are set to Full Range (by my Onkyo receiver of course), as they all can go down to 80 hz no sweat. And I do use two subs.
But here’s my question: If it is the case, and I manualy set all my speakers with an 80 hz x-over, what exactly happens to that bass that I manually redirected to my two subs? What I mean is, is there more resolution done to thast bass from all my speakers, or that bass does not contains more resolution (8 x more), that the LFE alone?
Do you understand what I mean?
Or, let’s put it another way: would it be preferable that my speakers are set with a x-over (small), so I would benefit even more of the 8 x more resolution?
Is this a big issue with the Onkyo 805 and it’s wrong interpretation (firmware decision) of setting speakers to Full Range when the 3 db point felt at 80 hz or below?
More to the point: do I change my receiver for one where the 3 db point is at 40 hz, or am I still gaining with my 805 to manually set all my speaker’s X-overs at 80 hz?
See what I mean? I just want to make sure that I get the full benefice of the 8 times more resolution in the bass, even if my Onkyo TX-SR805 do set all my speakers to Full Range (but I do set them manually afterward to all small, or Onkyo jargon, with a specific choosen crossover).
Sorry for this long post, but it is very important that you fully understand my question.
And I’m just so impatient to read your response.
And please, I really do need to understand this very important aspect of Audyssey.
Your’s truly,
Robert
January 29th, 2010 at 7:04 am
Hi Robert,
The Bass Management module in your Onkyo and every AVR does the following: It collects the content below the crossover frequency you set for each speaker, adds it all up and sends it to the sub. Furthermore, it takes the LFE track found only in 5.1 content and also sends it to the subwoofer.
So yes, you should change all your speakers to not be Full Range. That means, set a crossover at 80 Hz in your case. The bass content below 80 Hz from all the speakers will be sent to the subwoofer where the MultEQ filter has 8x more resolution. This will result in a smoother bass response in your room.
February 8th, 2010 at 8:15 am
Hi Chris,
I hope you can clarify some issues for me regarding the Audyssey MultEQ-XT room calibration.
I am the owner of an Integra DTC-9.8 pre/pro and Klipsch RF-63 and Klipsch RC-63 speakers. I also have an 12′ aktive subwoofer and some small satellite surround speakers.
I have calibrated my system according to the description on your website. The crossover for the front speakers were set at 90 Hz and the crossover for the center were set at 60 Hz. According to the speakers spesifications RF-63 should be able to yield 30 Hz +/- 3dB and RC-64 62 Hz +/- 3 dB.
Audyssey got the center right by setting it to 60 Hz, but the crossover for the front speakers were set 60 Hz above the specifications. The distance to the walls are approximately 20″ for the front speakers.
What can be the reason to the high crossover for the front speakers?
When I reset “Subwoofer” to “No” in “Speaker Config”, the “Front Speakers” are automatically set as “Full Band”. Will there be added a filter to the frequency domain below 90 Hz as the Front Speakers are automatically set as “Full Band” in this case?
I fully understand the benefits of having a higher crossover in most cases, but I can’t understand that my front speakers have a roll-off between 80 - 90 Hz.
I am looking forward see your answer.
Best Regards
Matthew
February 8th, 2010 at 10:59 am
Hi Matthew,
The speaker specs assume nearly ideal room placement and that’s not usually practical. Proximity to the wall and corner will greatly affect the roll off performance of the speakers. That’s really the whole point of measuring!
When you set the Subwoofer to No, then the front L and R speakers will automatically be set to Full Range regardless of their low frequency performance. There is no other choice since there is no subwoofer to redirect the bass to. The other speakers can then be told to the redirect their bass to the two front speakers that will act as a virtual sub. This is how almost every AVR maker implements bass management.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
Chris,
Thank you for your reply. I have been told that Audyssey will not make any correction (filter) to the sound below the suggested x-over frequency for the speaker. In this case the suggested x-over for the front L and R speaker is 90 Hz. When these speakers are set to “Full Band” because I set “Subwoofer” - “No”, will the sound be corrected below 90 Hz for the front speakers? Or will the sound below 90 Hz be as if I use “Direct”?
Best Regards
Matthew
February 8th, 2010 at 12:33 pm
The reason that MultEQ stops correcting below the in-room measured roll off point is to avoid the possibility of overboosting in that region. So, it won’t matter if the speakers are set to Full Range because there is no sub. MultEQ will still only apply correction down to the measured roll off point. Crossing over at 80-90 Hz is not that unusual for your speakers and the benefits of the 8x improvement in resolution that the MultEQ subwoofer filters provide is so big that I wouldn’t worry too much about the 90 Hz setting.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:55 pm
I am actually quite happy with the result. I just needed to clarify these issues.
Thanks again!
Best Regards
Matthew