Audyssey's Blog

Small vs. Large

May 27, 2009

Do you have a subwoofer in your system? Great. Then your speakers are small. Before you get all upset, read on. This is one of those audio myths whose time has come to be busted. To understand why, we need to talk about Bass Management.

In the early days of home theater it was thought that in order to reproduce the full movie surround experience at home it was necessary to place 5 large loudspeakers in the room. The reason for the size was the woofers. To play at theatrical reference levels and reproduce the deepest bass available in the content requires each speaker to have 12” or larger woofers. Let’s just say that this theory didn’t get very far in the real world.

A better and more practical approach came after studying human perception. The mechanisms that we use to determine the direction of arrival of sound depend on the frequency. At high frequencies the wavelength of sound is small and so sound coming from the side is shadowed by our head. That creates a level difference between the sound reaching the ear closest to the source and the ear on the other side. Our brain analyzes these level differences and produces an estimate of where the sound is coming from. But at lower frequencies, the wavelength of sound gets longer and our head is not large enough to produce a level difference at the two ears. Instead, we analyze the difference in time of arrival of sound at the two ears. Sound arrives first at the closest ear and we use that to determine the direction. But even that ability fails us below about 80 Hz. The wavelengths get very large and it was found in listening tests that 80 Hz is the frequency below which most people can not localize the direction of sound.

Taking advantage of this apparent “deficiency” in our hearing was what made home theater practical for millions of homes. Five satellite speakers of reasonable size could now be used because they no longer required large woofers. A subwoofer (or two) can reproduce the lower octaves and it can be placed out of sight since its content is not directional.

But there is also a practical advantage: directing the bass to a dedicated subwoofer channel with its own amplifier greatly improves the headroom in the main channels. The idea behind this was proposed in a Society of Motion Picture Engineers (SMPTE) meeting in 1987. The participants could not agree on the minimum number of channels required for surround sound on film. Various numbers were being shouted out until a voice was heard from the back: “We need 5.1”. Everyone’s head turned around to look at Tom Holman. He proceeded to explain what he meant: Take the low frequency content from all 5 channels and redirect it away from the satellite speakers to the subwoofer. If we do the math, then the content below 80 Hz is 0.004 of the audible 20,000 Hz bandwidth. But 5.004 didn’t sound as catchy so Tom rounded up to 5.1. By the way, don’t make the amateur mistake of calling it 5 dot 1. It is a decimal: 5 point 1.

Fast forward to the early 90s when the first DSP powered home theater receivers started to appear. Along with progress came complexity. Some industry forces believed that Bass Management should be an option that could be turned on and off by the consumer. That’s not necessarily a bad idea, but to make an informed decision requires much more knowledge about the system than what was available to the typical consumer. So, the Large and Small rule of thumb was established. The idea was to look at the size of your speakers and decide whether their woofers were “large enough” to reproduce the lowest octaves at the required levels. It was a noble thought, but looking at it 15 years later I believe that it has led to nothing but massive confusion. The poor consumer was led to believe that Large is somehow a good thing and was then left wondering why there was nothing coming out of their subwoofer.

Redirecting the bass to the subwoofer relieves the receiver amplifiers from having to work on reproducing the low frequencies and this greatly improves the headroom. If you happen to be using Audyssey MultEQ for room correction, you will achieve much better low frequency performance because the MultEQ subwoofer filters have 8x higher resolution than the filters in the other channels.

Here is a better rule: All speakers are Small. In today’s complicated AVR lingo that just means: If you have a subwoofer you should always turn bass management on. Always. Even if your receiver clings to the past and automatically sets your speakers to Large.

  • Hi Chris,

    I have a marantz nr 1602 and harman kardon hkts 16. I run audyssay and the outcome is as follows:

    Subwoofer mode: LFE


    LPF for LFE: 120 hz


     
    Crossover:


    Front: 150hz


    Center 150hz


    Surround: 150hz

    boxes are all set as small.

    I like the settings for movies but for music  I am not verry happy with the settings. Don't you think that these crossover settings are quite high? I have read several sites and also some blogs on this site, but am still struggeling with these settings. Can you elaborate on which crossover settings (or other settings?) are perhaps in general better for regular music (cd, mp3 etc.)?

    Regards,

    Niels


  • Hi Niels,

    Considering how small the woofers are in these speakers, I think that 150 Hz is rather typical for the roll off frequency. You may be able to get a little more extension by placing them closer to the wall, but not much more.

    As for music vs. movies, there is no difference at all. Audyssey is fixing the acoustical problems of the room. These problems don't really know (or care) what the content is. They are there because of the size of the room, the furniture in it, and the placement of the speakers. So, I don't believe there is any reason to have different correction settings depending on the content.

    One issue that comes up in music is that there are no industry standards on the mixing conditions. In film, all speakers are set to the same level including the sub. In music, there is more of a preference by each producer. So, unfortunately, it's not possible to predict that. It sounds like you may also have a preference for higher bass levels. If that's the case, there is nothing wrong with raising the subwoofer level in the AVR after the calibration is finished. It will have no effect on the most important part of what Audyssey does: room correction.
  • James
    Chris,

    I have a Onkyo HT-RC370 powering a 5.1 channel system with AR 328PS main speakers (35Hz freq response) and a BIC V1220 subwoofer (23-180 hz response).

    I originally had been using only the main speakers however I wanted a subwoofer to properly reproduce the LFE channel in movies. When I added the subwoofer and ran the calibration the crossover was set to 40 Hz for the main speakers. After listening to music with this setup I thought that the sound seemed very lacking in bass (actually less bass than before I added the subwoofer) and slightly unbalanced like it was missing all of the mid bass. Prior to finding this blog I had experimented with some of the settings in the receiver and had tried setting the fronts to full band (significantly more bass but not balanced) and I had even tried setting the crossover to the THX recommended setting (80Hz) but I could not get music to sound right.

    After reading this article and the comments I tried adjusting the crossover and finally found that if I set the crossover higher I could finally get balanced sound. I eventually set the corssover for the main speakers to 120Hz since that seemed to be the fullest sounding setting.

    Are you able to shed some light on why setting the speakers to small with a crossover would result in less even thinner sounding bass than when the speakers are set to full range?

    Does 120Hz seem high for setting the corssover? I would prefer to have it lower (closer to the 80Hz range) to prevent directionality of the bass.

    I verified that the speakers are capable of reproducing low frequencies (no blown woofers) by setting the receiver to no subwoofer.


    Thanks,

    James
  • Hi James,
    The RC370 has Audyssey 2EQ. That's the most basic version of Audyssey that doesn't correct the subwoofer response due to limitations in the available processing power of the AVR. So it's difficult to predict what the sub is doing and how it interacts with the main speakers... Most likely there is a suckout in the overlap region between the sub and the sats that is not being corrected.
  • James
    Chris,

    One of the reasons I bought the HT-RC370 was because it had MultiEQ XT and the receiver did have me perform all 8 measurements and pinged the sub each time.

    This is a brand new 2011 model middle of the line Onkyo receiver. Does Onkyo have the specs for this receiver listed incorrectly?
  • Hi James,
    Sorry, I was incorrectly referring to the RC360. The 370 does indeed have MultEQ XT. We have to look elsewhere for the cause. When listening to music are you in Direct mode? That turns of all digital processing including bass management so there would be no signal sent to the sub. Not recommended.
  • James
    Chris,

    I have been listening to music using the All Channel Stereo mode. I actually do not like the direct mode as much since it disables both the subwoofer and possibly believe the Audyssey calibration on the receiver.

    The subwoofer is working at the lower crossover frequencies and I do hear the really low frequencies coming out of it. It just seems like the bass is very lacking and thin (unless I either disable the sub or set the crossover to 120Hz).


    Thanks,
    James
  • Hi James,

    Yes, the Direct mode disables everything. The All Channel Stereo mode on the other hand messes everything up. There is nothing worse I can think of to do to 2-ch music than use this horrible mode. I need to write another blog about this and rant for pages...If you want to up mix to surround there are much better modes that use some steering intelligence.

    In MultEQ XT the subwoofer filters from Audyssey have 8x higher resolution in the sub. So, if there is a room issue near 100-120 Hz then it is much better handled by sending that content to the sub. When you set the cover lower, the speaker filters are trying to deal with the issue and are probably running out of resolution.
  • James
    Chris,

    Thanks for the informative answer. If it is likely that I have a room issue at 100-120Hz and the sub filters are better equipped to handle that issue. I assume that this means that I should leave the sub at 120 even though I am starting to get some directionality out of the bass?

    So you don't recommend all channel stereo. While I am curious as to why I will patiently wait untill that Blog is written... What mode would you recommend instead of all channel?


    Thanks for your assistance,

    James
  • Yes, I would try leaving the sub crossed over at 100-120 Hz so that more content is sent to it.

    I would recommend that you try any of the other 2-to-5 up mixing modes by Dolby or DTS. Anything but all channel stereo...Actually, the only thing worse than that are the so-called room simulators (club, stadium, etc.)
  • tobby
    Hi Chris
    I ordered a Velodyne DD 15+ sub, 5 identical small speakers (ASW Opus C 06) for front, center an surround sound reproduction and a Denon AVR 4311 with MultEQ 32 capacity.
    Which bass management should I you, Velodyne or MultEQ 32?

    TOB
  • Hi,
    Audyssey doesn't do bass management. Neither does Velodyne unless you plan to use the primitive speaker level connection method to the sub. Bass management involves the distribution of bass to the sub and higher frequencies to the speakers. This is the job of the AVR.
    If you are asking about room correction, I would recommend that you start with what MultEQ XT32 does. It operates on a completely different principle than the traditional parametric EQ methods found in most subs.
  • Ical
    What difference does it make if the crossover frequencies are set at 80Hz? Why do I still need to put it at small? Arn't both options triggering the same thing (i'm using a Denon AVR-3312)
  • If you have a crossover frequency defined, then the speaker is set to Small. That's what Small means.
  • Adam
    Hi Chris,

    I have a Marantz 6005.  I ran Audyssey and it chose Large for my fronts and did some other tweeks.  I have to manually edit some parameters to match your recommendations, i.e. crossover.  However, when I review the Audyssey settings, the original parameters appear.  

    Now my question  - When I choose to run Audyssey, does the receiver take my changes into consideration or does it  use the original Audyssey parameters.
  • Hi Adam.
    As mentioned in the blog above, Audyssey does not select Large or Small.  Never has.  This decision is made by the AVR maker.  We strongly recommend that the AVR never selects Large if there is a subwoofer in the system.  But, they still do...
    You should change the fronts to Small if you have a sub.

    The Parameter Check menu will always show the results of the original measurement.  It's not what is being used if you have made changes.  The settings you make in the crossover, delay, and level menus are the ones that the AVR uses.
  • Adam
    Hi Chris,

    Great! I thought so, but the manual is confusing because it says that 

    "changing the speaker settings after performing Audyssey Set Up disables your ability to use MultEQ, DynEQ and DynVol" 

    but I was almost positive (and you confirmed it) that the AVR was using the adjusted settings along with Audyssey.

    Thanks again, your blog is awesome and informative.  My home theater has never sounded better. I attached a picture.
  • The manual is incorrect if it says that... Thanks for attaching a picture--the room looks great!
  • PeterP
    Hi Chris

    I would agree with the above Small vs. Large position up to a point. Where is see a problem is when you have very large front LRs with good frequency response down to 20Hz and even below. Definitive Technology speakers with built in subs and very high end speakers fall into this catergory. People then might want to buy an extra sub to provide only super low extension eg. (10-20 range).

    In this scenario i don't think the above analysis holds, because by switching your fronts to small, cutting them off at 80hz, you're transferring a large slice of frequency range which your 2 front speakers were carefully designed and engineered to do over to a single sub which might be of inferior quality. Thats putting a lot of pressure on the poor sub! The headroom you take away from the fronts, is the same that is taken away from the sub when you give it all that work to do, if the fronts can handle it then surely let them do it!

    The reason i've been thinking about this is because I am a Def Tec owner and couldnt help noticing a bit in the manual which contradicts your above advice:

    "VERY IMPORTANT: Setting Channel Balance
    and Bass Management Systems

    ...Your receiver or decoder’s bass management system should be set for
    “Large” left and right main speakers and “Yes” subwoofer. If you have a
    Definitive center channel with a built-in powered subwoofer, set your decoder’s
    bass management center channel setting to “Large” (although you should
    experiment with this to see what sounds best in your specific system). If you are
    using large rear surround speakers with very extended low frequency response
    such as a large Definitive floor-standing system or one with a built-in powered
    subwoofer, set the rear channels of your decoder’s bass management system to
    “Large.” If not, set them to “Small.”

    Please note i'm not arguing with anything you've said, because for 90% of systems the above advice is absolutely correct. But i couldn't help wondering when i noticed that the new Audysessy system stats gives the same level of analysis to the fronts (512) as to the sub (512), that was as an answer to this to those in the other 10%. I don't have this new audyssey codec, so for now will setup my system as having no sub and keeping my fronts large.

    I might be wrong about all of this, please let me know if so! Cheers!
  • Hi Peter,
    Actually the headroom issue in the fronts is bigger than the sub, particularly when using an AVR that has to handle several channels. The dedicated sub amp can do a better job because it is dealing with a limited frequency range.

    But, my argument is more selfishly motivated: MultEQ and MultEQ XT have higher resolution filters in the sub channel. Because most problems in small rooms are in the low frequencies this added resolution (8x higher) makes a big difference in producing a smooth response.

    This is no longer an issue with MultEQ XT32 products where the resolution is much higher in the satellite speakers.
  • Yep, the Audyssey equalization features for the Onkyo TX-SR609 are really great.  Especially good for low- and mid-priced systems since it can fix some of the weaknesses of low-priced speakers.
  • Avinash Kotwal
    Hi Chris,
    Thanks for v informative article. it sure makes lot of things clearer. 
    I have couple of queries.I have Denon 1610 with wharf 9.2 as fronts(with 6.5' woofer), 9.CS CC(with 5' woofer) and JBL controlOne as surrounds. No sub added yet. Audyssey sets my fronts and CC as large. As you have already mentioned this decision is taken by AVR. I am trying to make the dialogues little more louder/clearer as i have to constantly play at higher levels( 10 - 0db) to make them audible.So :
    1. I have already changed the CC to small. would it help? unless there is no sub do i gain anything from freeing up the CC from low frequencies?.
    2. Do you also recommend changing crossover frequencies . Right now they are set as Front - 40Hz, C - 60Hz and Surround 60Hz. 

    Thanks in advance.
  • Hi Avinash,
    If you don't have a subwoofer then you have no choice for the front L and R speakers. They can only be set to Large. Small means: "send bass to the subwoofer" and so if there is none that choice is not available. Denon (and every other maker) allow you to then set the other speakers to Small so that their bass is sent to the front L and R speakers.

    If the woofers in the L and R speakers are larger than your Center speaker, then yes, it's better to set the Center to Small.

    I suggest leaving the crossover as they were found in the measurements.
  • Avinash Kotwal
    Thanks for the Reply Chris. 

    Just curious so if a speaker is set small does it mean anything below 80hz will be sent to sub/large speakers. If yes then setting a crossover for small speakers doesn't make sense. right? Also - usually in 5.1 soundtracks do they have low frequencies directed for other channels also(other than sub channel).
    Thanks.
  • Hi Avinash,
    The above is true only if you don't have a subwoofer. If you do, then the content below the crossover frequency for any speaker set to Small is sent to the sub.
    Low frequency content is not directed to other speakers during authoring of the soundtrack. It's only during playback in home theater systems that this is done for the reasons mentioned in the blog.
  • mastersm
    Also which is the best speaker setting, with a subwoofer and large floor standing fronts?
    1. Large with Bass turned on, or
    2. Small?

    also if I ave large rear floor standing speakers should i set them to small, and also what about the centre, does their settings have any effect on the sub, or is it just the fronts?
  • Michael, repeat this slowly 5 times: "if there is a sub, there is no such thing as a Large speaker"!  Unless, of course, you are not interested in playing bass from your sub and are using it for a flower stand :-)  If you set a speaker to Large it will *not* send bass to the subwoofer.  That's what Large means as I discussed in the blog above.

    If you have a sub, then *all* speakers should be set to Small so that bass is properly directed to the sub.  That way you get the benefits described in the blog.
  • mastersm
    Hi Chris

    I have a Velodyne 12Q Subwoofer and it's maximum doesn't appear to be 120hz but 'Direct' is it the same thing and should I set it to direct?
  • Direct (some call it LFE input) is better because it bypasses the internal subwoofer filtering that is best done in the AVR.  If it's not available then set the filter to the highest available.
  • VMR
    Dear Chris,

    Thanks for your great work. Two questions, if you have time. I have got a Denon AVR-2807, and I quite like it. Run Audyssey autosetup, all 7 speakers come up as large, set them to small, xover to 80hz, lfe xover to 120hz, no double bass.

    (1) the equalization kills entirely the 125hz band (even -30db on some of the speakers, -15/20db on the rest). This gives me a sound which sometimes feels too thin to me, but all in all it remains definitely much better than with no equalization at all (too boomy). Question is: is there a likely cause for this effect on the 125hz range?, can I do something do convince Audyssey just to leave a bit more of it?

    (2) is the xover cutoff supposed to be tight? Definitely in a range below 80hz the speakers vibrate (though they produce little or no sound), definitely in a range above 80hz my sub plays. I just don't know whether this is normal, or indicates something wrong with my amp (though I suppose the latter).

    Thanks a lot.
  • 1. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the graphs in the 2807. They are a very coarse representation of the hundreds of points that make up the actual correction. So, a big dip may actually be a much more complicated sequence of peaks and dips. Do you have tower speakers by any chance? It's common for these to exhibit a big resonance at 100-120 Hz (like an organ pipe) and often a big cut is needed. Hard to say.

    2. The crossover filters have a very specific slope. The highpass filter applied to the speaker has a 12 dB/octave slope that combines with the acoustical 12 dB/octave slope in the speaker response to give you an effective 24 dB/octave slope. The lowpass filter applied to the signal going to the sub is 24 dB/octave. Thus, the two filters (highpass and lowpass) combine with the proper phase relationship to avoid causing any artifacts at the blend region.
  • VMR
    (1) No tower, I have got 6 mordaunt-short avan 902 and the central 905 (all ported). I like the way they sound, but I couldn't tell whether they are particularly resonant in the 100-120hz range. Certainly, Audyssey seems to think so...

    (2) So, from your answer I get that although the sounds goes off quickly at the xover point, the cut-off point is not precise to the hertz... Nothing wrong with my amp.
  • It doesn't necessarily have to be a resonance. It could just be the placement. I don't think there's any indication that something would be wrong with your amp. Perhaps try moving the speakers closer to the wall to extend their response lower.
  • Dimmies
    Thanks Chris, I learnt practically all I know about how to set up the speakers for a HT from this article and it's comments!

    However, my amp is a Integra 30.2. This only has 2Eq, not the MultiEq. I only have 3 positions for measuring when running auto setup. A couple of questions:
    1) is there any way of upgrading to MultiEq without buying another amp?
    2) Would I gain anything if I borrow my friend's Onkyo 707 amp, hook it up in my system, run MultiEq, take the system settings and then apply the same crossover settings to my Inegra?

    Also, my Integra no longer has teh small and large settings. It only has crossover freqs and 'full range'. Looks like there will be less confusion in the future!
  • Hi,
    The processing power required internally for MultEQ is much higher than 2EQ and so there is no way to do a software upgrade. I don't think there would be any benefit in borrowing the 707. It shares the same ability to measure distances and set levels as your 30.2.
  • Steve
    Hi Chris

    Read this post end to end (phew) and whilst I think I have the hang of all this "small" and "large" etc, still have a conundrum.

    May I ask for some additional clarification ?

    The sub I'm considering is from a UK manufacturer called BK. They recommend 2 inputs for their sub.

    Both high and low level inputs have independant level and xover points.

    Extract below:-

    When using a source on the low level input that has built in bass management ( AV
    Processors) then you can switch the Filter Bypass Switch to the Out position. Your
    processor will manage the bass frequencies on the low level and the XLS200 will
    manage the bass frequencies on the High Level Input

    1) So, to connect, we have standard LFE - via the phono.
    2) a high level signal - directly from the AVR.

    The theory is that LFE is only carrying an effect channel and does not contain other bass information. So, they ask you to do this, so that the sub gets other bass signals and deals with them.

    So, my Onkyo 608 has the so called "bass management" feature and the rather limited 2 EQ tuning software - which as you know, doesn't work on sub levels or Xover F.

    So...
    Do I use "double bass" ? (sending bass + LFE via phono to the sub). If I do this, then the fronts must be set to full band and this is incorrect (I've read and understood)

    My AV doesn't have a way of sending Bass information & LFE only to the sub channel via the phone (or so it seems).

    I'm a little unsure how I'm going to set this lot up.
    Will Audyssey work it all out ? - I think not

    Thanks for all your help.

    Steve
    Many thanks..

    How do I get hold of the bass signal normally sent to the main speakers and route it to my sub. OF course.. LFE is assumed to be there all the time.
  • Hi Steve,
    To get the bass from your speakers to be sent to your sub you must make sure that none of the speakers are set to Full Range (or Large). If any have been set to that by the AVR then you need to change them to Small by selecting a crossover frequency. 80 Hz is always a good choice.

    You should never use Double Bass. It just muddies the bass by sending it to both the sub and the speakers.
  • BtrSound
    I had forced my speakers to small and it came across as a bit bright. I have the Polk RTi A9's and when I left them on large, the sound was full and more evenly distributed. The RTi A9's do have three 7'' subwoofers, but the sub is still required to hit lower frequencies. To me it sounded better with them on large.
  • Do you have a separate powered sub or are you referring to the woofers in the speakers themselves?
  • Nico Biersteker
    Hello Chris.
    I have a Denon AVR-2309, 2 Paradigm Monitor 7 frontspeakers, 2 Paradigm Monitor Mini surround speaker. I hope to recieve a Paradigm DSP-3100 subwoofer within a couple of weeks.
    I'm wondering if the speakers are still producing (when set to "small") any bass at all when the subwoofer is connected as well.
    And, if not, what's the use of bass-speakers any longer (when you're having a sub offcourse) ?
    And an other question: what is ment by "bypassing" the sub ?

    Thanks in advance for your response.
  • Hi Nico,
    The bass from the speakers is being sent to the subwoofer. It's not lost. The subwoofer is better equipped to handle the bass and the MultEQ filters in the Denon are 8x higher resolution in the subwoofer. This give you much better bass response in your room.
    The "bypass" refers to the frequency setting on the sub. Some models allow you to bypass it so that it doesn't interfere with the measurements and with proper bass management that is best performed in the AVR. If yours doesn't have a bypass switch, just set the frequency knob to the highest frequency and leave it there permanently.
  • Nigel
    Hi Chris

    You say that it's better to disable the subwoofer's LPF, or set it to its highest frequency, and let the higher resolution MultEQ filters in the AVR do the bass management. But my AVR is fitted only with 2EQ, is your advice the same in this case?

    Thanks
  • Hi Nigel, yes the advice is still the same. Even though 2EQ does not apply any filter correction to the subwoofer, it still measures it for level and distance. So, the lowpass filter on the sub will interfere with these measurements. Remember, the only reason that filter is there is to help people with legacy gear that has no bass management. All modern receivers perform bass management in the digital domain and so this control is not needed.
  • Nico Biersteker
    Hello Chris.
    Thank you for your explanation.
    Sorry for having an other question for you, concerning the parameters after running the automatic Audessey with my Denon AVR-2309, including the Paradigm DSP-3100 subwoofer.
    Audessey set (in the Advanced setting of my AVR) my fronts to 40Hz, the surrounds to 60Hz en LFE to 80Hz.
    In my understanding this would imply that the subwoofer is barely effective, or am I wrong ?
    The volume of the front speakers was lowered with -8db, of the surrounds with -7,5db and for the sub it was put on + 2 db.
    I find this rather confusing because it seems that the AVR is compensating the Herz-setting of the speakers and the sub with an adjustment of the volumelevels ?
    (also because the measured distance of the sub is a few meters more then the real distance)
    Is it wise to set the crossover frequency of the LFE to 120 Hz and for the front- and surround speakers to 80Hz ?
    I truly hope that you can help me out here and thank you in advance for your reply.
    Great blog by the way !
  • Hi Nico,
    The level of each speaker is set so that two things are achieved: (1) all speakers and subs play at the same level and (2) when you turn the master volume control to 0 dB you are listening at the same reference level as what they heard when they mixed the movie.

    This setting of levels has nothing to do with the real work that Audyssey is doing: creating filters. The MultEQ filters make adjustments to each frequency so that the response of the speakers is as smooth as possible.

    The LFE filter is not a crossover. It has no effect on the bass from the other speakers. It is lowpass filter that is only applied to the separate LFE track found in 5.1 content. It should always be set to 120 Hz because that is what was used when the content was created. It's actually a very bad idea that AVR makers even allow the consumer to change this setting.

    Yes, setting the crossovers for the speakers to 80 Hz is a good idea. That will send more content to the subwoofer where the MultEQ filters have 8x higher resolution.
  • Kristjan
    Hi Chris
    Just wanted to thank you for alot of patience and very good advice. I think you should write the user manuals for some of these Audio companies. I have a Denon 3310 and after reading through most of your responses I´ve been able to tweak my system so it sounds alot better.
    Thanks again.
  • Thanks Kristjan, glad to hear your system sounds great!
  • eknick
    I went through the Audessy Auto Setup procedure on my Denon AVR-3311CI and it assigned the size "Large" to the left and right front stereo speakers. However, you recommend always setting them to "Small" when a SW is present. So I went into Manual Setup and set them to "Small", overriding what came out of the Audessy Auto Setup. Is this OK? Should I somehow have set them to "Small" BEFORE starting the Audessy Auto Setup?
  • The Large and Small designation is not from Audyssey. It's from the AVR. We recommend ALWAYS setting the speakers to Small if you have a subwoofer, for the reasons stated in the blog. It's OK to change to Small after the calibration. Before, won't matter because all internal settings are ignored when you run MultEQ.
  • Ramidyett
    Chris,
    I hope this is not too far afield. People have touched on the subject of individual listeners' hearing limitations as a factor in appreciating music. Audyssey has just about everything covered - except the listener himself. Is it at all conceivable that a future system would tailor sound to the limitations of one's hearing? I could imagine test tones being generated thru the speakers, like a hearing test, and the listener responding with the remote if they can hear the sound, whether it's loud or soft, etc. Then, the receiver shaping the sound based on strenghs and weaknesses of the listeners' range. For example, if you have a weakness at around 300-600 Hz, maybe it could boost that range? Or is this all Sci-fi? Thanks for any thoughts.
  • It's not scifi! This is something that is worth considering.
  • Ted
    Hi Chris
    I need a good advice in setting up the followings: denon 2310C and klipsch HD 1000 suround speakers, what is the best setup for the subwoofer?.. the instruction that comes with it really is not clear and does not indicate any good setup. I know that the surround speaker should be set to small, but the physical knob at the back of the sub should be set to what best settings:
    Low Pass filter: 40 to 120 hz? what's the best settings
    Phase switch: 0 or 180??
    Gain: 0 to high ??

    Thank you

    Ted
  • Hi Ted,

    Tips on setting up a subwoofer before running MultEQ are found here:
    http://ask.audyssey.com/forums...

    The idea is to remove as many of the subwoofer controls as possible because they end up interfering with proper bass management in the AVR and with proper measurements.
    -The low pass filter should be turned up to the highest frequency and left there always.
    -Phase (should actually be called Polarity) Switch at 0
    -Gain should be around the midpoint--please read more about this at the link above.
  • Nick the Greek
    Hi Chris,

    I ahve read almost all posts but still i have some questions for you.
    I have a Denon 4308 coupled with B&Ws 604s floorstanders and a lcr600 center speaker and 4 dipoles DS3s THX for surrounds and rears all muched by a SVS sub.
    Although i have understood that i should have them all set as small and let the svs handle the low freqs, it is strange that Multieq is setting all my speakers to large (yes, i know, denon doeas that as you mentioned several times) and the croos at 40hz.!
    My question is how can the 4 dipoles that are THX and rated to go as low as 63hz, are being perseived and set at 40hz? Being placed at the wall may be the reason, but should i leave them at 40hz as aaudyssey says or follow the THX standard and set them at 80?
    Also, should i keep the LCRs at 40hz or put those at 80 as well (but this will make all speakers the "same" but they are not, LCRs are much bigger and NOT dipoles as the surrounds).

    Thanks in advance,

    Nick (from Greece :) )
  • Γεια σου Νικο,
    The low frequency performance of speakers is greatly affected by their proximity to walls. So, it's very possible that the roll off is pushed down to 40 Hz if your speakers are on or very near the wall. I would recommend moving the crossover for all speakers up to 80 Hz after the calibration is finished. This will send more content to the subwoofer where the MultEQ filters have 8x more resolution.
  • Paolo
    Chris, I have the same problem with an Onkyo SR3007: after audyssey calibration the front and center speakers (Mission bookshelves) are set to 40hz; the front height (mission) at 60hz and the surrround (mission dipole) at 80hz: should I set all the speakers up to 80hz? And let do the work to the velo sub?
  • Ciao Paolo,
    Yes, you will get better use from the MultEQ subwoofer filters if you send more content to the subwoofer. 80 Hz is a good choice. Also, please look here for more tips on how to set the subwoofer controls before running MultEQ: http://ask.audyssey.com/forums...
  • Nick the Greek
    Γεια σου και εσένα Χρήστο,

    Many thanks for your prompt reply.

    Kind regards

    Nick
  • Kyle6286
    Also Chris, my volume on the back of my sub is only set to 4, with the highest being 10. I can't figure out why Audyssey is setting the sub to -15db.
  • Hi Kyle,
    Audyssey is trying to set your sub level to match that of the other speakers. This is required in order to match the calibration used in the dubbing stage where the content was mixed. It seems that your sub volume control is still set too high on the back of the sub for that to be possible. I suggest that you turn down the sub volume further so that the trim returned after the Audyssey measurements is higher than –15 dB. If you can, also try repositioning the sub to a different location--for example away from a corner.
  • Kyle6286
    Hi Chris,

    I lowered the volume down to 3 and audyssey set my sub at -13db. I really can't move the sub to another location due to furniture location, although it is currently in the corner right now but about 9" from the walls. Is it ok for the sub to be at -13db? I thought I read somewhere that is ideal to have the sub set at +-3db. I raised all of my speakers to 80 hz as well. Thanks for your timely response as well!
  • Hi Kyle,
    It sounds like you are within the AVR range now and so all should be fine. There is nothing magical about getting the trim to within ±3 dB. This is just a rough adjustment on the sub volume knob so that MultEQ can measure the exact level and apply the exact trim needed to get the sub level to reference.
  • Kyle6286
    Thanks Chris. Greatly appreciated!
  • Kyle6286
    Hi Chris,

    Very informative blog here. I am new to all of this stuff and have been messing around with my settings over the past couple days. I ran Audyssey and it came up with:

    front: 70 hz
    center: 70 hz
    surround: 60 hz

    The LPF of LFE is set to 120 hz and my subwoofer is set to its highest crossover frequency of 150. Do you suggest I change anything with this setup? I am confused because when I go to my AVR level calibration, it is saying my subwoofer is -15db. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thank you
  • Victor
    Hi Chris -

    I too am confused on the small vs large speaker setting. In a system with a sub (or 2), if all speakers are rated as low as 40 Hz and the AVR is set to roll off at 60 Hz on all speakers, what difference does it make to the listening experience and MultEQ if one (small or large) is choosen over the other? Or put another way, what is processing happening through the AVR when you choose large over small or vice-versa? Is there simply no roll-off on larger (full band) speakers?

    Thanks for all your great advice and information.
    Victor
  • Hi Victor,

    It's actually very simple despite the confusing terminology used by the industry:

    Speaker set to Large (or Full Band as some call it) = NO bass from that speaker is sent to the subwoofer
    Speaker set to Small = Bass below the crossover frequency set in the menu goes to the subwoofer



  • Tvstaff
    Chris, I'm really upset! I have 6 Canton CT-1000's and a Canton Center that go below 20.... really! :) in a 7.1 setup with a HSU 15" sub.

    Your note leads me to think that you want me to set the speakers to small and roll-off every thing below 80 to my sub????

    How can one sub do the job of 6 speakers when you think of music and lower notes on organs, drums and such that were meant to be directional in 5.1 music. Would I not be directing what the producer intended to come out of one of the 6 speakers to the sub. Hence losing the mix the producer set while recording the music?

    Thank you,

    Tony

  • Tvstaff
    Thanks Chris. Wonder why I bought such large cantons with 12 Inch woofers that go below 20Hz??? I've had a friend tell me they play refernce level organ music spot on. He plays a organ in a LARGE NYC church. Guess I'll invite him over after I change everything and see if he likes them even better. Thanks again for your help. Tony :)
  • Maybe a better question is: "why did you buy a subwoofer"? If you want any bass playing from it (other than whenever the LFE track kicks in only in 5.1 content) then you should set speakers to Small. Less manly, I know, but better sound!
  • Tvstaff
    Chris you make an interesting point. However. I have listened to a 5.1 recording made at the old 1133 RCA Studios in NYC of two Drummers miked one for Front Left and the other for Front Right. When I roll everything off at 80 I don't get the POW feeling of the directional bass from the two. I only get it by setting the Cantons to 40Hz. Then I FEEL the two different bass drums and floor toms coming from the Front Left & Right with a great sound stage and seperation. The HSU when picking up both Fr L&R takes away from the seperation. I can FEEL the difference. Even if most people or equipment can't hear "directional" bass below 80 you sure can FEEL it. Why do the test discs with organ music allow you to hear below 80? If you mike two drum sets and want the seperation why not play it as close to as the music was produced? I work in TV and compress so much with CODECS that music takes a back seat. Even with new stuff we're working on with Dolby E. I just want the LFE channel to produce that.. LFE. If the speakers and AMPS are up to the task there should be enough headroom. I'm not happy with any audio or video setup there always seems like room for imporovement. I've just listened to Krell 900e amp driving 5.1 Maxx Wilsons and that's about as perfect as I've listened to but I know for a fact that the engineer who set it up did not roll off the wilsons. I'll keep looking for perfection or wait until I can afford our Chairman's Krell / Wilson setup...
  • Vegvortex
    One more thing: you could also simply set your crossover frequency to 60Hz or lower.
  • Vegvortex
    Even though your post is a year old I have to respond.

    Why not simply playback your Organ Music "STRAIGHT"... simply through L + R and play anything mixed 5.1 in the way stated above?
  • Hi Tony,

    Surely you're not saying that content below 80 Hz is directional, are you? It is pretty well established that it isn't.
    If you have 6 speakers set to Large then the only content your sub is playing is the occasional use of the LFE track found only in 5.1 content.

    From an Audyssey viewpoint, you are also not taking advantage of the much higher resolution that the MultEQ filters have in the subwoofer channel.
  • Mike in NJ
    Chris,

    I'm sure I speak on behalf of all Audyssey users when I say the technical support you provide is superb. While I fully understand the point being preached in your large vs. small setup, it also leaves me wondering whether this is a design limitation, characteristic or...dare I say...flaw.

    I love how my Onkyo HT-RC180's Audyssey engine has enhanced the sound coming from my Wharfedale Diamond 9.6's, especially with music, my primary application. Now that I've added a subwoofer -- hence all the research and discovery of this thread -- it seems that best results are achieved with all smaller (NOT tiny, please read) speakers in the physical sense. (Coincidentally, this is how most HT speaker packages are configured.) Those of us with larger versions from within a manufacturer's speaker lineup seem to gain NO advantage from the added cabinet bulk when used in a typical, Audyssey-corrected home theater application. As with almost every speaker manufacturer, spending more generally gets one a bigger cabinet and low frequency drivers to increase low-end response. Based on the realities being preached here, I'd have been equally served with the smaller (and less costly) Diamond 9.5's or 9.4's.

    So, IF someone needed advice from me on how to purchase speakers for an Audyssey-based home theater, I think I'd steer them to the smaller cabinet versions of the brand/model they seek for best results and "bang for the buck", since the added bass capability of the larger versions will not be realized. I can't see any argument that counters this conclusion.

    My question now is this: Can I -- and if so, how -- do I reap the added benefit of my bigger cabinets while using Audyssey for listening to music? Or is the simple answer that this iteration of Audyssey works best as put forth repeatedly on this thread, that of making them "small" in Audyssey's eyes…er, ears?

    Once again, thanks for the terrific product and even better support!


  • Hi Mike,
    Thanks for your comments. The current iteration of Audyssey doesn't get to set speakers to Small or Large. The AVR manufacturer makes that decision. Our recommendation is that if you have a subwoofer you should ignore their decision if they happen to set your speakers to Large (or Full Range).

    If you would like to use your tower speakers without a subwoofer, then the newest Audyssey technology: MultEQ XT32 will help greatly. The 32x increase in filter resolution will allow finer correction down to lower frequencies of the satellite speakers.

    But... please consider this: there is no reason to be switching your sub on and off when switching between movies and music content. This is another one of these misconceptions going around. A sub that is properly integrated (i.e. time and level aligned) with the main speakers will be allow you to reproduce the full range content in the exact same way for movies and music. It becomes a natural extension to the response of the speakers and is not dependent on the type of content.
  • Joao Vieira
    Chris,

    So if I sail my floorspeakers with double 8" woofers and get a bookshelf with one 8" woofer, the same power speaker, I won't feel many diference because of the bass management (sub taking care under 80Hz). Is it correct? I am having a problem of space and would like to place speakers out of the floor.Thanks
  • Hi Joao,
    It's difficult to say "there will be no difference". It really depends on the performance of the subwoofer and the size of the room. But, yes, the basic principle is that you can use smaller satellite speakers and send the bass content to a separate subwoofer using bass management in your AVR.
  • Bassicfan
    Chris, I ran Audyssey on my Denon 1910 using Energy Micros. I ran the LPF knob on the subwoofer at the highest frequency setting. The auto set-up set my crossovers at 200HZ. That seems really high though per everything else I'm reading.

    Should I lower it? Or should I back the LPF knob on the subwoofer down (the manual recommends 150 HZ) and run Audyssey again?

    Thanks,
    JC
  • Hi JC,
    The LPF filter knob on the sub has nothing to do with the measured roll off frequency of your speakers. It needs to be set to the highest setting so that it doesn't interfere with proper bass management that the AVR is performing. The roll off found is not unexpected given the very small size of the drivers in your speakers. We do not recommend lowering the crossover setting because MultEQ will not apply correction below what it measured to be the roll off point.
  • JOHN
    my denon 789{auotsetup} set my left and rights speakers to 150hz my center to 90hz my satelite to 100hz and my LFE is at 120 hz I HAVE A ADVANCE CROSSOVER WHAT SHOULD I SET IT AT? THE INCREMENTS ARE 40HZ 60HZ 80 ,90 100,110,120,150,200,250HZ I NEED TO KNOW WHICH ONE IS RIGHT ?
  • You should leave the crossover to the values that MultEQ found. In your case it is 150 Hz for the front L and R, 90 Hz for the center and 100 Hz for the surrounds.
  • JOHN
    i understand that BUT THE {ADVANCE} CROSSOVER WHAT SHOULD I SET IT AT IN THE DENON 789 THE INCREMENTS ARE 40 HZ TO 250 HZ RANGE? DOES 100 HZ SOUND RIGHT
  • Hi John,

    There is no need to set it manually. It is already set for you to the frequency that MultEQ measured. It is not recommended to lower it.
  • Chapman
    HI Chris,
    I have read your blogs and they are very helpful to me. Thanks. In addition I will like to know if you change the crossover back to "Advanced"or you left it at 80 Hz??? which one will be a better set up??? I also have a pro cinema 600 with denon 2310 reciever . what way do I turn the back knob on the sub? towards the 40 hz or 150 hz?? thank you
  • You should leave the crossovers to the values that MultEQ found. The filter knob on the sub should be set to the highest value. More subwoofer setup tips can be found here: http://ask.audyssey.com/forums...
  • pixelphoto
    Hi Chris,
    Last evening I stumbled on to your blog. Doing so made my evening. I read all 201 comments. Several of the posters have Def Tech Mythos STS speakers as I do. Your answers and advise are appreciated to the max. I have always had the subs connected to my Onkyo 605 AVR via a y-cable. I did not realize it was the receiver setting the LR speakers to full rather than Audyssey. So I changed the LCR to 80Hz and left the surrounds (made by DCM) at 150Hz. and the LPF of LFE to 120Hz. I also changed the speaker settings for my Oppo 980H to small. Well to my great surprise the sound was more seamless, more resolving at the lower end and just more enjoyable. Your explanation of Small vs Large is a no brainier after all I understood it!
    Thank you so much for sharing.

    Marvin
  • Ally
    Dear Chris,
    Found this great blog and really learned much about Audyssey and bass management. I've got a Denon 2308 and 7.1 channels with 2 additional SW configured as follows:

    1. L/R Floorstanders
    2. Centre with a SW connected directly to it
    3. SL and a SR with a SW attached to the SR
    4. SBL an SBR
    5. REL Quake

    Do I still set my centre and SL/SR as small? and to 80Hz?
    Do I set my 2308 to LFE or LFE and mains? and to 120MHz?
    Do I still set the roll-off of my REL to max?
    Do I set the LFP on the 2 secondary SW to max also?

    Appreciate your professional advice. Thanks

  • Parrish
    Hi Chris,
    I have paradigm cinema 110 ct setup with AVR-2310CI. What should I set my crossovers at ? I know my LFE should be 120 right ?
    I have the Cinema ADP surrounds and after calibrating with audyssey it had the rear at 200
    fronts were 80 and I think center at 100 or 120
  • Hi,
    I suggest that you leave the crossovers as suggested by the in-room measurements that you took. Yes, the LFE lowpass filter in the AVR menu should be set to 120 Hz.
  • Parrish
    Chris thanks for the fast reply....
    the actual settings that audyssey calculated were
    front 60
    center 100
    surround (adp's) 200
    lfe 80

    as to my understanding the front and center are the same speaker why such a variance ?
    what is your suggestion to change each to ? I know it is not recommended to go lower than what audyssey calculates, but should the surround not be lower?
  • That's the whole point of measuring in your room! Identical speakers will perform differently because of placement and room acoustics. I would not recommend setting them lower. If the surrounds are small speakers and not close to the wall, the 200 Hz roll off is rather typical. It's nothing to worry about. It simply means that the content below 200 Hz is sent to the subwoofer, which is much better equipped to handle it.

    The most confusing part for most people is the LFE setting. Unfortunately people use LFE and Subwoofer as if they were the same thing. They are not! LFE is a separate track found only on 5.1 content. It is directed to the subwoofer speaker in addition to the bass from all the other speakers.

    To add to the confusion, manufacturers offer an LFE lowpass (LPF) filter setting. They should not! During authoring of the content, the LFE track is limited to 120 Hz. So, any other setting for the LFE lowpass filter is incorrect! It should always be 120 Hz and, in fact, should not be adjustable by the user.
  • Hi Ally,
    Yes, set all your speakers to Small if you have a sub (or two) in your system.
    Do not use LFE+Main as it sends bass to both the satellite and sub and often gives the wrong results.
    Always set the LPF for the sub in the AVR menu to 120 Hz.
    Always set the subwoofer lowpass filter to the highest available so that it doesn't interfere with measurements and proper bass management.
  • Ally
    Thanks, Chris. Must go back and redo all my Audyssey calbrations.

    One more question, after the calibration, do I let all the 3 SWs LFP continue to remain at max?
  • Yes, the lowpass filter (LPF) on the back of the sub should always be left at the highest setting if it can't be turned off completely.
  • Ally
    Thanks Chris. Sorry, I need to check one more setting for my REL. You reommended to set the phase to 0. The REL has 0 with crossover engaged and 0 with crossover bypassed. Which should I choose for a) During calibration and b) After calibration?
  • Hi Ally,
    It's best to bypass the crossover in the sub if you have that capability. For more info on sub setup and MultEQ you can also look here:
    http://ask.audyssey.com/forums...
  • Ally
    Thanks for the great advice and service. Now my system is tuned accordingly to Audyssey's parameters.
  • Roy Midyett
    Chris, Thanks again for a great service. My question is this: if Audyssey is supposed to work in Denon and other receivers (and it does work!) but the small/large thing, and the crossover thing is so important, why isn't this done when the Audyssey is run? If someone doesn't stumble across your blog, or something close, they will never know; the owner's manual doesn't really cover it. Why is something so important left virtually to chance?
  • Hi Roy,
    You are right. We have been trying to get manufacturers to change the way they think about Large and Small for years. Some change has come as a result, but more is needed.
  • visserah
    Can the Audyssey MultEQ system be used with the Mission m-cube surround system?
    In this system the subwoofer amplifies all the channel specific
    information that the m-cube satellite speakers cannot reproduce (20-300 Hz).
    So when for example the receiver sends a 250 Hz signal to the Left Front speaker this sound signal comes out of the subwoofer.
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